Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
At least it is off of the current page of the thread.
***It gets odder and odder.***
The brightest angel is very inventive.
***Maybe Paul meant that we should pray continuously but never repeat a word?***
Ever witnessed a stream-of-consciousness monosyllabic prayer?
***That can’t be the case because the Lord’s Prayer, itself, repeats some words.***
The Lord’s Prayer is totally in the Bible, except where it isn’t.
***Opinions are hard to pin down, especially when the opinions themselves can change with the argument and mean more than one thing.***
Protestant theology varies with the person, the time of day, the emptiness of the stomach, the flareup of the gout, the urgency of the nicotine addiction, the losing of the Yankees, and the taxedness of the Government.
Come to think of it, chiropractic works on a paying basis too.
***We shall find out what The Lord God’s perspective is on that.***
We all shall. Nobody gets out without that Judgement. There are many on your side that are convinced that they will skate on by without being Judged.
Perhaps you might address them.
***No.
But I do wonder about the expiration date on my can of Deep Woods Off.***
Insectoid theology cannot supplant the Church, although it tries.
Just as an aside, since this epic thread has now been reduced to commercial messages, I want to state affirmatively that Deep Woods Off absolutely ROCKS.
The dark green can, with the 40% DEET.
***Haven’t seen such hereon.
Now the opposite, I’ve seen in flooding abundance.***
Let us clean your glasses for you.
***So now Free Republic is to be subjected to commercial solicitations from/for this guy?
No. You can go here. ***
You may mean that one Protestant has posted a commercial ad, now you have posted another.
Do you see any Catholics posting ads for anything religious on FR? I suggest that you may wish to get a grip. I am worried.
***Just as an aside, since this epic thread has now been reduced to commercial messages, I want to state affirmatively that Deep Woods Off absolutely ROCKS.
The dark green can, with the 40% DEET.***
I find that holy water is effective against the minions of the brightest angel.
The Rosary is good for that too.
Flies: green can
Devils: Blue Army
Actually, rumor has it that the transition of the rel forum into a branch of the _____________ is nearing completion.
Out of curiosity, I note that this Rev. Wright, lists all those things that he deals with...but he does not list helping amputees with re-creation of their missing limbs...actually none of the ‘faith healers’, prime among them, Benny Hinn, ever makes the claim about being able to help amputees....I would also make the same claim about Lourdes, or any Catholic claims concerning healings...
Why are the amputees always left out?...what is the explanation for this?
I have heard convincing reports of occasional cases where an amputee has had a limb regrown by God’s power. Very uncommonly.
I don’t know what the answer is unless it’s the old one of a lack of faith.
Personally, I believe we are going to see many such in the closing pages of history as we have known it . . . in these rapidly intensifying END TIMES.
I believe that the darkness will be getting darker as we’ve seen plenty of already in the political and other arenas and that God will also be raising up standards against the darkness.
I believe that there will be many resurrections from the dead. I believe there will be many regrown limbs.
I just don’t know when.
Maybe I’m a wimp . . . but I’d just as soon the worsening times were delayed even though I know they must be and even though I know God will be moving mightily in spite of them.
I realize that the teaching that we Christians need to have the attitude of the 300 lb canary is apt. . . .
HERE KITTY, KITTY . . .
I just haven’t quite made it to that attitude persistently, yet.
Thanks for your honest and kind question.
Thanks for the reply....tho I don’t think that amputees being unable to have their limbs regrown is attributable to a lack of faith...if that were so, then somehow all those amputees out there, are all indulging themselves in some sort of mass lack of faith, that others with ‘diseases’, are not indulging in...and I find that conclusion to be not logical...
Especially with so many of our service members returning from Iraq, and winding up minus one limb, or more than one limb, one would think that these faith healers, would be more than anxious to assist them in regrowing their limbs, and yet I see no faith healer at all, especially those on TV, going out of their way, to bring amputees onstage...they are willing to bring lots of folks onstage, with apparently all other sorts of maladies, but never once, have I seen an amputee brought on stage, for a miracle cure...
Perhaps the answer is more obvious...simply put, it may be, that the faith healer, ‘knows’ he cannot recreate a limb on stage, in front of the audience, therefore, he dares not even try...
I put it forward, that if a faith healer claims he can truly cure those cases of cancer, etc, that are deemed hopeless by the doctors, he can just as easily re-create a limb...why he never even makes the attempt, is readily explainable by acknowledging, that the ‘faith healer’ himself knows he is unable to recreate a limb, and therefore, would not even try..why would any faith healer take the chance of embarrassing himself, in front of a huge audience, expecting miracles to happen...it is just better and much safer to keep those amputees off stage, and out of sight..
Yes, indeed, I am completely skeptical of those who make these claims of these faith healings...
In spite of my skepticism, I readily would agree, that if God wishes to carry out a miracle cure, for someone, he will do so, as suits Him, and according to His will, without the use of a specific faith healer, who makes the claim that God works through him..
To repeat, I dont buy into the notion, that the amputees of the world, are somehow all lacking in the faith necessary to regrow their limbs, but all other people with various ailments, do posses sufficient faith for a cure...this makes no sense to me...
Where is one testimonial from one doctor that this charlatan Wright cured LUNG and BONE CANCER?
This is so bizarre. And to think that this infomercial was posted on a FR religion thread. Snake oil, pure and simple.
Right breast cancer, problem with mother in law.
Left breast cancer, problem with mother.
Resolve the problem, cancer goes away.
Honestly, this is not sane.
Just $24.99 (plus shipping and handling, please allow 4-6 weeks for delivery, order NOW and get Paster Wright’s wonderful new CD with 15 more diseases you can cure at home at no cost or inconvenience) and you too can be CURED!
Quix, this guy is nothing but a quack. Not even a faith healer! Anybody can see right through him.
No, just painting the outside of the cottage to match the house. Pale cream with dark blue shingles and a white porch. Very pretty, actually.
A lot of the work was cleaning out the overgrowth behind the cottage, and moving the rank of wood next to it. Only one side and the front left.
I would have been glad to pay someone to do it, but there aren’t any handymen around that I know and trust.
Duh! Pale cream with dark blue SHUTTERS and a white porch.
My own opinion thus far, is that these self-proclaimed faith healers are no such thing...I am always willing to be convinced otherwise, upon good evidence, but thus far, I remained unconvinced...
The one case, that really had me scratching my head, involved Benny Hinn, and Paul and Jan Crouch..Paul and Jan Crouch, founders of Trinity Broadcast Network, and Benny Hinn are great pals, and Benny Hinn is always on air, at Trinity, with his faith healing shows, and on TBN’s fund raising programs...so I was quite bewildered, when Jan Crouch was diagnosed with colon cancer, and had surgery, and then went into remission...I was equally bewildered, when her hubby, Paul Crouch, fell and broke a number of his ribs, and he had surgery to stop internal bleeding...
Why did both Paul and Jan Crouch have surgery, if they had Benny Hinn within near reach?...surely Benny Hinn, could have healed them with a prayer and a touch...why subject oneself, to surgery, when surely all it would have taken, would have been the healing hand of Benny Hinn?
Again, this makes no sense...Benny Hinn, either is, or is not a true faith healer... Paul and Jan Crouch continue to give a nod to Benny Hinn and endorse his ‘healing’ ministry, and allow him to put himself forth as a faith healer, capable of curing anything, and do so on their own TV network...and yet when push came to shove, and each Crouch needed surgery, they went with traditional doctors, rather than get healed by Benny Hinn....well, that ought to say something, it should give people reason to doubt anything that Benny Hinn even says...surely one would think that Jan and Paul Crouch had ‘enough’ faith for Benny Hinn to cure them....it did not play out that way at all...the faith healing was left for others, Paul and Jan Crouch relied on traditional modern medicine and modern medical technology..;
Again, I state, I do believe the miraculous spontaneous healings can come about if that is what God wishes...but I dont believe it takes a Benny Hinn, or this Rev. Wright, to carry out these healings...God is quite capable of carrying out these healings on His own, if that is what He choses to do...
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