Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
***Mark, have a little mercy and understanding, just try to imagine how frustrated people can get.***
Are you referring to Mr. Potter in It’s a Wonderful Life? Old and warped and frustrated?
***Can you imagine fighting against something which Jesus promised would stand until the end of time? It doesn’t matter if that is what they think they are doing or not; it is what they are doing and they are destined to fail.***
The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. That means that we’re going in there and kicking ass. Wonder how many Protestants will join us?
BTW, Pastor Wright doesn’t hold himself out as a faith healer at all. I suspect he finds that rather objectionable for some reason.
He considers himself merely a Pastor teaching about Biblical truths as they relate to health and wholeness of body, mind, soul, spirit and relationships.
He’s about getting information into as many Christian hands as he can responsibly manage to do and keep the teaching relatively uncontaminated, straighforwardly Biblical.
Half of A MORE EXCELLENT WAY is Scripture after Scripture about every 2-4 paragraphs is another Scripture or several Scriptures.
The rest is what God has shown him over thousands of cases.
The whole thing is BIBLICALLY AND VERY EXPERIENTIALLY EMPIRICALLY BASED.
That’s one reason this whole “charlatan” thing is outrageously off the wall—hideously off the wall wrong about him.
And really says far more about the accusers than anything else.
Why is it necessary, that you know, my specific religious background?....I prefer to say, that I am a Christian, of no religious denomination, or church...now, you know...take it as you wish...
After her Son’s Ascension, Mary “aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers.” In her association with the apostles and several women, “we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation.”
Quix;
Old Reggie has a problem with my personal testimonials and therefore in the interest of fairness and unanimity, I will have to ask you to refrain from personal testimonials.
In other words, unless OR is satisfied that one’s personal testimonials are trustworthy, then one really ought to stick to trustworthy sources such as CNN and the NYT.
It ain’t true unless it passes the Old Reggie lie detector.
Because you’ve—YOU’ve thrown the issue in my face 3-4 times now.
Real cute that you now play coy about it.
Sheesh.
Bye.
GTTM
Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
Those darn mothers in law.
Mine is coming here in another couple of weeks. I’m getting the tire swing up so she feels at home. :)
By her complete adherence to the Father’s will, to his Son’s redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church’s model of faith and charity. Thus she is a “preeminent and . . . wholly unique member of the Church”; indeed, she is the “exemplary realization” (typus) of the Church.
Super GTTM
My kids used to “camp out”. I let them go about a tenth of a mile away one night (1980ish), I could watch their fire. The next morning they came home and told me that they ate a rattlesnake!
Some illegals came upon their camp and they had a rattlesnake for dinner so my kids shared their beanie weinies and spaghettios with them and the illegals shared their rattlesnake. That was back in the day that illegals weren’t scary.
***I have no miracle working power to force mules to drink.***
No mule here, boy. Six children.
How many do you have?
Thanks for the ping, dear brother in Christ!
3,000 and counting.
***He shows people the root causes of their illnesses. He’s not a faith healer, per se.***
Such as what? Cancer? So what?
All it really says about those who dont accept your analysis of Rev. Wright, is that they are skeptical about his claims....all faith healers, or whatever you want to call them, use Scriptures in their healing services....they all ‘claim’ that God has shown them healings in their cases....so what Rev Wright is ‘claiming’ is nothing new at all...it is just the same scenario, as most faith healers use....
***BTW, Pastor Wright doesn’t hold himself out as a faith healer at all. I suspect he finds that rather objectionable for some reason.
He considers himself merely a Pastor teaching about Biblical truths as they relate to health and wholeness of body, mind, soul, spirit and relationships.***
Does he work for a living?
***The whole thing is BIBLICALLY AND VERY EXPERIENTIALLY EMPIRICALLY BASED.***
Nope.
***The rest is what God has shown him over thousands of cases.***
Why wouldn’t God have shown him the truth on the first case? That way nobody would have died unnecessarily.
Evidently you know very little about rheumatoid arthritis or you would be quite aware that there are remissions, sometimes years in length, in some people, and they come about for no discernible reason.
Giving this disgusting charlatan credit for a perfectly natural phenomenon is just sick.
I do not have stiff hands. I may or may not ever get them. My RA may progress, or it may not. None of that is outside the expected outcomes according to science.
And your evident anger that andyandmikesmom didn’t choose to confide in you what her church may or may not be is just ridiculous. “Because you’ve — YOU’ve thrown the issue in my face 3-4 times now. Real cute that you now play coy about it,” is extremely hostile. And typical.
***No mule here, boy. Six children.
How many do you have?
3,000 and counting.***
Sorry, I had considered you to be a mammal and not an amphibian. My apologies.
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