Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I have his book as well. He’s no phony.
***2. If I come up with such a testimonial by an MD in good standing in his community, will you repent of such outrageous statements against Pastor Wright?***
My mother died of ovarian cancer. Not breast cancer so I cannot take direct umbrage.
If you can come up with reasonable proofs, then this dude is a miracle worker; else he is a miserable fraud that needs to be run out of town on a rail.
I had to laugh when you mentioned setting up a tent for the kids to sleep in...reminds me of when my boys were growing up, and we were living in North Carolina...
Every summer we would go camping down at the ocean, for our vacation...but when we were not using the tent on vacation, it was always set up in our front yard, for my boys, and any invited neighborhood kids, to use for their sleeping quarters, if they wanted to do that...
It was a very large tent, so a lot of kids could fit in there....they all just loved the idea of sleeping out at night....my boys usually spent most of their summer nites, sleeping out in the tent, along with their friends...
Kids just naturally seem to love camping, and love sleeping in a tent, and gently roughing it...
There are so many people out there who are sick because of jealousy, unforgiveness, bitterness, hurt. YES their lives can be changed and healed when they give up those things, repent, and forgive people. This especially happens with arthritis. Unforgiveness is a real cause of many of these diseases we have. Self hatred is also a big cause.
Blessed be the Name of The Lord.
May He confirm whatever He wishes to confirm to you.
***I find that holy water is effective against the minions of the brightest angel.
The Rosary is good for that too.
Flies: green can
Devils: Blue Army***
.357 Hydrashok works pretty good too.
He often doesn’t heal because he wants you to learn something through the illness, usually something of Him. His grace has certainly been sufficient through mine. I’ve learned more about Him being sick than I ever would have being well. It’s called dependence, for one thing.
If it ain’t written in the Catechism, it just ain’t true! LOL. They don’t seem to consider that God is NOT in their little box.
My responses to the below are subject to my understanding.
Joya knows more having gone to his week-long conference.
M2:
I would call into question anybody (again, either Catholic or Protestant) who asks for, explicitly or implicitly, payment in exchange for any cure. That is not to say that a person could not offer, on a free-will basis, a gift in thanksgiving...but that gift should not be a predicate. See Acts chapter 8 in regards to the sin of simony.
Quix: Pastor Wright is quite humble and does quite well enough as Pastor of his sizeable church. Any income from books etc. as I understand it is used primarily to make information available in responsible ways to folks most serious about getting better in their lives. Also, they discovered that they solved a lot of their problems with chaff sorts of distractions and hindrances in their ministry—kind of weeding out folks who wanted to toy with the idea of getting better or worse, just wanted to be contentious and distract them from their tasks of helping people if they required a subscription etc. As I understand it, at their conferences, there’s a portion of materials that are given away free.
There is no fee direct or indirect for prayer. Folks receive prayer at his church all the time just by showing up.
I would call into question anybody (again, either Catholic or Protestant) who identifies himself/herself as a great healer...or even who says that God works mightily through himself/herself. (See 1 Cor 15:19...consider Paul’s attitude about himself) — consider the spiritual forces involved with Reiki — where the “minister” uses his/her “internal powers — given by God” to “heal.” Seems like meekness is a far more authentic virtue.
Pastor Wright is head and shoulders ahead of about anyone else I’ve ever known of on such issues. I have no concerns about him on such scores at all.
M2:
I would call into question anybody (again, either Catholic or Protestant) who practices a healing ministry only (or even primarily) in very public settings. Look at the example of our Lord healing the blind man in Mark 8. He entreated the man to tell no one. Think about Matt 9. He (Our Lord) did a whole bunch in private...not for show.
I would call into question anybody whose personal theology surrounding healings attested that all are assured of receiving physical healing. Col 1:24 testifies that Paul was afflicted. Our Lord told us all to take up our crosses and follow him.
I think the above is a stacked distorted deck Biblically. Christ healed plenty of folks publically. Pastor Wright prayers for many folks publically and privately just as Jesus did.
***Every summer we would go camping down at the ocean, for our vacation...but when we were not using the tent on vacation, it was always set up in our front yard, for my boys, and any invited neighborhood kids, to use for their sleeping quarters, if they wanted to do that...***
May God have already blessed you for that.
We’ve had a 7x7 tent set up in the front room for the past month and a half - we only took it down when we accepted a Wurlitzer upright piano from Sister Ludmilla (local food pantry manager) who had to move after the floods here and couldn’t take her piano. We were contacted and agreed to be an adoptive parent, as it were.
I fill in at Mass (usually when I walk in and am notified that the organist or cantor couldn’t make it) and am blessed with the gift of being able to read music and play the piano / organ / keyboads.
***Kids just naturally seem to love camping, and love sleeping in a tent, and gently roughing it...***
Very gently but pretending is a great thing.
If we confess our sins to our Lord, He forgives them. There is no need to be judged. Our deeds will be, but not our sin.
I’ve been in 4-7 such services.
Awesomely lovely. Super moving. Awesome Presence of God.
Very healing and delivering; encouraging and confirming.
He shows people the root causes of their illnesses. He’s not a faith healer, per se.
Too much truth in your statement of many to stomach well.
I wonder if anyone could please voice their views, concerning newborn and very young babies, afflicted with very serious, life threatening, and often terminal diseases...many of these babies die....
I know one young mother, who had her three month old baby diagnosed with a cancerous brain tumor....he lived for a few months, and then he died...what could a three month old baby, possibly learn from this?...would resentments could a three month old baby have, that would cause this?...
I am very curious to see how different people look at this situation...thanks...
Mom, perhaps God has reasons for not healing most amputees. Not everyone gets healed. If God WANTS to heal, He will. Sometimes He chooses not to because He wants us to learn something of Him; sometimes He does it miraculously, others take time. We can’t tell Him what to do. He tells us...
We know from Scripture that
1. the sins of the fathers may be visited upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation.
2. Collective sins of all mankind in terms of polluted environments in various ways impact health of all of us to some degree depending on many factors—some spiritual. See #1
3. God does not lose any babies. All are in Heaven. Their suffering touches His heart most keenly.
4. Scripture teaches that all our worst suffering is not worthy to be compared with the glories of Heaven. That goes for babies’ suffering, too.
5. Godly Suffering does earn rewards. I’d think that RC’s would know that already as I understand their teachings.
6. I personally believe that we MAY have a hand in choosing with The Father what suffering we will experience in this life before we are born into it.
You do if you ask Mary to pray for you.
***If we confess our sins to our Lord, He forgives them. There is no need to be judged.***
You don’t believe that you will be Judged for your deeds on Earth?
***If it ain’t written in the Catechism, it just ain’t true! LOL. They don’t seem to consider that God is NOT in their little box.***
Not our box. Jesus told us what is what; if you don’t like it, you don’t get to make up the rules.
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