The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[raygun]

If it wasn't so depressing, you'd almost be amusing. As if that was a "cut & paste job". The time I've spent on this board has taught me well that touche is the cry to be made when ALL that one can respond with is lack of credidation.

You have recourse. You can notify Dave Hunt, Berean Call, and company et ali, that I plagarized his work. Because that is exactly your point, as if that in and of itself would minimize, mitigate, disperse your personal responsibility, or trivialize or outright refute the substance of my post.

Now, just to be clear, I'm going to show you the true meaning of "cut & paste". You know what? NO credit, citation, nor bibliography will be necessary. But if you desire, you can run to that authority and complain to them that I'm plagarizing their works. Good luck on that.

I'm going to lay it out how Mary is the Co-Redeemer, Mediatress of ALL Grace, and just what veneration of Mary actually entails.

I'm going to do that without ANY citation whatsoever. Feel free to petition the Holy Office (aka Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith). Maybe you get an autos-da-fe out of the deal (I'm not holding my breath though).

The blood of the martyrs cries out, and if I'm somewhat virtriolic, so be it; an apology would go far to ameliorate.

You and your church have no grounds whatsoever to cry hate, hostility or vitriol. No, not one ground whatsoever in that regard. Instead, and the foregoing notwithstanding, I see deliberate, stubborn, mulish stiffneckedness.

After almost 13,000 posts what has been conceded to by either party?

[Quix]

INCREDIBLE.

1. I cannot imagine ever again taking any protestation from any RC hereon about any purported slander by any Protty with more than a molecule of salt.

2. If I come up with such a testimonial by an MD in good standing in his community, will you repent of such outrageous statements against Pastor Wright?

[Quix]

I think your logic is somewhat flawed.

Growing limbs back, because of their obvious visual need for a dramatic creative miracle can readily be more difficult for many people to have faith for—particularly the ones with the missing limb.

Certainly the healing field has been full of hokey-ness; even sinfulness . . . but most of the problems are merely flawed humans bungling along as best they can with the giftings God has given them. And, many people have been healed accordingly. All of us in such congregations as routinely believe in such have seen such.

And, those in China have seen far more—particularly in places where there’s no seminary to tell them such healings don’t happen any more.

In terms of creative miracles happening . . . I was standing 1.5 feet or so from a good friend who had a filling miraculously installed in his mouth where he didn’t know he needed one. Per the instructions of the evangelist, he felt a warm tingling sensation in his mouth and went immediately to the restroom and inspected his mouth—sure enough, there was a gleaming new filling.

The evangelist had no idea why God chose gold fillings for some, silver for others and evidently new teeth for others.

And, my mother’s sister married to my Dad’s Assembly of God preacher brother were good friends with the evangelist who routinely reads out of his eye socket with or IIRC without his glass eye in and with any kind of covering over his good eye that anyone wants to install.

You will know of one or more regenerated limbs in your lifetime due to God’s power. One or more of such will be in your social network. You will remember this assertion when you are presented with the facts in your social network.

Folks who manifest dogged persistent skepticism out of a bad-faith carnal critical judgment heart/spirit will be increasingly setting themselves up for God’s judgment.

Heretofore, God’s judgment has tended to be much delayed and as such of limited behavior modification value. Increasingly in the END TIMES, God’s judgment and the reaping what’s sown consequences will fall closer and closer to the offense until such are routinely immediately upon the offense. Perhaps then, SOME hard hearted and stubborn folks MAY learn something. But I’m not placing my bets on that happening even in a majority of the cases.

I Sam 15:23: For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

[Quix]

p. E29 A MORE EXCELLENT WAY:

“Through my husband’s infidelity I contracted condyloma. I was totally unaware of being infected. Eight years later, while at the doctor’s office for a kidney problem, he did a pap smear. The pap smear came back positive for cancer. In fact, the doctor had never seen a pap smear so bad. I had surgery immediately.”

“A year later I had bleeding in the bowels. Treatment brought no relief. Finally I had to have surgery aain. This time they found four clusters of the condyloma. When they removed those, they said there was no hope. They would keep coming back until my whole system was infected. It was a death sentence.”

“The surgery left me greatly debilitated. I was in constant intense pain. I continued to bleed.”

“I came to Pleasant Valley Church as a last hope. I was healed, totally healed. In fact, one doctor that I saw two years after surgery said he saw no evidence that cancer had ever been there. Recently I visited my first doctor. She said she had never seen someone in my condition healed. She could not believe that there was absolutely no trace of the disease there. I give God all the glory!” —K.R. Anchorage, AK USA”

I will see what I can do about MD verifications etc.

[andysandmikesmom]

I disagree with you about my logic..I think my logic is quite good, and not flawed concerning this...if a faith healer can really, really heal, he can heal amputees, and that he fails to even try, says a great deal about himself...it really is just that simple....

Concerning knowing about missing limbs being regenerated, during my own lifetime, now that would be quite something to look forward to....since I am 62 years old, and have never heard of such a thing happening, that can be authenticated(remember folks can say whatever they want, evidence is needed to back up these claims), I shall spend whatever time I still have left, hoping sincerely that someone can come along and provide me the evidence of someone actually having a missing limb restored...I eagerly await news and evidence of such a happening...

When you said...”Folks who manifest dogged persistent skepticism out of a bad-faith carnal critical judgment heart/spirit will be increasingly setting themselves up for God’s judgment.” who exactly are you referring to?...folks can have a skepticism, and it has nothing to do at all, with any sort of bad-faith carnal critical judgment, heart/spirit as you want to call it...that skepticism has to do with the number of fake ‘faith healers’, twirling onstage, using shock belts to zap people to the floor, the ‘faith healer’ himself using traditional modern medical technology for himself and his family, while urging others, to rely solely on their personal ‘faith healing’ abilities...that skepticism is based on just plain old simple observation and research....it has nothing to do with anything as you have suggested...

All that being said, do be aware, I have seen miracles in my own life, and in the life of those I love, regarding health issues...none of these miracles had to do with any self proclaimed faith healer...

So far you have done nothing to dissuade me from what I believe regarding these faith healers....

And believe me, I have no fear at all, that because I remain skeptical of the outrageous claims of these faith healers, that somehow God will be displeased with my choice....

Because you see, I do believe that miraculous events can and do occur, because God Himself can perform such, if it is His will...he has no need of some self proclaimed faith healer, to help Him along....

Nope, nothing you have said, has provided any reason for me to change my mind, regarding these self proclaimed faith healers...

[Forest Keeper]

Thank you Mary! :)

[Marysecretary]

I don’t ask a deceased Christian to pray for me. That’s the difference.

[Marysecretary]

Exactly. I never ask a deceased person to pray for me. What a joke.

[Marysecretary]

Catholics on these posts act the very same way, tiki.

[Marysecretary]

We do study the whole Bible, Judith Anne. We don’t just pick a few scriptures that ‘seem’ to fit our agenda like many Catholics have done. Born again believers ARE the saints of God. We don’t have to have canonized saints because God calls His children saints. If He’s your Lord and Saviour, YOU are a saint.

[Marysecretary]

I don’t think I’ll depend on Mary to deliver my soul from death. Thanks but no thanks. LOL.

[markomalley]

I, for one, have no problem with the concept of miraculous healing. I can't imagine any believing Catholic who would. (After all, there are enough Catholic pilgrimages to Lourdes to testify otherwise)

Having said that, I also know that there are more charlatans who prey upon those with weak minds and weak faiths (both Protestant and Catholic, btw) to know that there are charlatans out there.

I know nothing about this Rev. Wright to say anything about him one way or the other. So any comments I make are general in nature and do not reflect ANYTHING about him.

Having said that, I would say that the following would be good guidelines regarding the subject of healings:

• I would call into question anybody (again, either Catholic or Protestant) who asks for, explicitly or implicitly, payment in exchange for any cure. That is not to say that a person could not offer, on a free-will basis, a gift in thanksgiving...but that gift should not be a predicate. See Acts chapter 8 in regards to the sin of simony.
• I would call into question anybody (again, either Catholic or Protestant) who identifies himself/herself as a great healer...or even who says that God works mightily through himself/herself. (See 1 Cor 15:19...consider Paul's attitude about himself) -- consider the spiritual forces involved with Reiki -- where the "minister" uses his/her "internal powers -- given by God" to "heal." Seems like meekness is a far more authentic virtue.
• I would call into question anybody (again, either Catholic or Protestant) who practices a healing ministry only (or even primarily) in very public settings. Look at the example of our Lord healing the blind man in Mark 8. He entreated the man to tell no one. Think about Matt 9. He (Our Lord) did a whole bunch in private...not for show.
• I would call into question anybody whose personal theology surrounding healings attested that all are assured of receiving physical healing. Col 1:24 testifies that Paul was afflicted. Our Lord told us all to take up our crosses and follow him.

FWIW

[Marysecretary]

AMEN!

[Marysecretary]

How sad for you to have such a closed heart. You have my pity.

[Petronski]

That’s not a difference. Neither do I.

[Quix]

END TIMES PING LIST PING for prayer and interest

[QUIX NOTE: I felt it was more or less dared for me to come up with good testamonies. Here is a selection. I’m looking for more targeted to specific things mentioned above. Nevertheless, the below include some such and certainly some touching cases. Of course I expect none of the below to be anything that stubborn haughty attitudes will pay the least bit of attention to.

Nevertheless, they are here for those readers who may benefit from them because they touch on similar things in their lives. There is at least one lung cancer case and at least one R. Arthritis case. Blessings. May The Lord God be Praised!

I doubt any of the links will work for those not subscribing to the 7000 Project subscription]:

STAGE IV CANCER METASTICIZED TO THE LINING OF THE LUNGS:

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I’ve deleted the several testimonnies I planned to post pending release from the 7000 Project re copyright.

I plan to come back and post them assuming I get such a release.

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FOR THOSE WHO’S FAITH IS STRENGTHENED MORE BY HEARING VS READING:

Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Thomaston,GA
Posts: 3,487 Be In Health - current radio programs

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[Marysecretary]

Good one. I copied it into my files. Thanks. M

[Marysecretary]

I haven’t heard it but a friend of mine did in our church just one time. Must have been lovely.

[andysandmikesmom]

I think you have offered up, some most excellent advice...thanks...

[MarkBsnr]

We have been blessed with the acquisition of a two storey home with a finished basement walkout onto a ravine. The builder was a demi Pentecostal preacher; the house has a good heart and was made for us and our five children.

We have a 3 room tent that we just erected outside for all the kidlets to sleep in and pretend that they are camping in the wild. I just put out the campfire. We had hot dogs and s’mores and all that good stuff.

Fond regards from all the bunnies and Bambis and the other edible creatures.