Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I think it’s safe to say that bowing and prostration mean different things to different people, and should not be placed as stumbling blocks to the weak. To him to whom it is divine worship, he should not bow nor be required to bow, and to him to whom it is not it should be permitted if felt necessary.
I think St. Paul wrote at length on these sorts of scandals.
I think your points are wise and accurate.
I was happy to bow on greeting and leaving in China. Had no hint of worship, for me nor for anyone watching me do so.
God has blessed the Roman Catholic Church as being the largest branch of Christianity (although we don't consider ourselves "a branch of Christianity") - there are over 1.086 billion baptised members around the globe. Our traditions as a people are both religious and cultural. I can't vouch for the traditions of all those people around the world
Although a Catholic teaching may not be plainly stated in the Bible, like "The Trinity", nothing that the Catholic Church teaches contradicts the Bible. There are however many so-called teachings that others attribute to the Catholic church that are false.
“I was happy to bow on greeting and leaving in China.”
I think that’s an excellent analogy, considering how the rites controversy and the kowtowing issues so completely obstructed evangelisation of the Chinese for so long.
What a pleasure it is to agree.
***************
No kidding? Well. If you say so.
Are you under the impression the Catholic Church is growing and thriving? Well, it isn't.
While those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes. While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic. These losses would have been even more pronounced were it not for the offsetting impact of immigration. The Landscape Survey finds that among the foreign-born adult population, Catholics outnumber Protestants by nearly a two-to-one margin (46% Catholic vs. 24% Protestant); among native-born Americans, on the other hand, the statistics show that Protestants outnumber Catholics by an even larger margin (55% Protestant vs. 21% Catholic). Immigrants are also disproportionately represented among several world religions in the U.S., including Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism.
The Pew Forum 2008
Do Priests leave? You bet!
Researcher studies why priests quit.
Catholic priests - Why do some feel it necessary to give up their religion to follow Christ?
Why I left the Roman Catholic Faith.
DID I REALLY LEAVE THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH?
While I'm not a great fan of Vonnegut, I think you would be well served by his story "Mother Night."
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=8620
Roman Catholicism in the United States has grown dramatically over the country's history, from being a tiny minority faith during the time of the Thirteen Colonies to being the country's largest profession of faith today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_the_United_States
February 25, 2008
"The Landscape Survey confirms that the United States is on the verge of becoming a minority Protestant country; the number of Americans who report that they are members of Protestant denominations now stands at barely 51%. Moreover, the Protestant population is characterized by significant internal diversity and fragmentation, encompassing hundreds of different denominations loosely grouped around three fairly distinct religious traditions -- evangelical Protestant churches (26.3% of the overall adult population), mainline Protestant churches (18.1%) and historically black Protestant churches (6.9%)."
Please define "authentic magisterium" using an OFFICIAL Catholic source.
I’m sure you can find it without my help.
These statistics are (not) born out by the Pew Report.
The Pew Forum
Words are one thing. Action is another.
I would expect you to provide some reliable information before calling me a liar.
How is this? You have no idea what you are talking about.
You can attend Mass for 100 years and never hear the entire Bible.
How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass?
Not as much as you might think, yet far more than was included in the Roman Missal before the Second Vatican Council!
Lectionary Statistics
If one includes all the Masses for weekdays, rituals, votives, the propers and commons of saints, and special needs and occasions, the Lectionary for Mass now covers much of the NT (about 90% of the Gospels, 55% of the rest: Acts, Epistles, Revelation), but still very little of the OT (slightly over 13%), but this is understandable, given how much longer the OT is.
An Introduction to the Lectionary for Mass
I await your proof that what I say is untrue.
No, neither is the other Mary.
Are you prepared to prove that all your "rich" tradition came from Scripture and/or an Apostle?
If you are unable to answer this question simply ignore it. It isn't necessary for you to blow smoke in my direction.
The Blessed Virgin Mary is not my mother?
I agree completely. She is not my mother.
She had only one child, Jesus Christ.
Always good to find a basic, rock-solid agreement! Fixed point in turning world sort of thing.
No .. you can't hold priests responsible for proper catechesis of all their parishioners. Give credit to a society and psychologists that place greater strain on the individual to enjoy life. Let's face it, most Catholics are poorly catechized. In my diocese, the bishop has now made religious education optional, except when the child has chosen to receive a Sacrament. In that case, the onus is on the parents to pick up the prescribed books and educate the child at home. Yes, you read that correctly.
Since our parish does not fall under his guidance, we have taken a very strong approach to religious education for our children. Even so, I have to call the families each week to remind them about classes. The parents are also ignorant of their faith - something I am now pursuing in terms of adult education. Our priest uses his homilies to educate but unfortunately, those in the pews oftentimes tune out what they don't want to hear. And they don't want to hear about marriage vs living together, no artificial contraception, no gay marriage, the need to attend Mass weekly, etc.
As I said in my previous post, it is so much easier to leave the Catholic Church and adhere to some protestant sect that elevates the Bible and allows for artificial contraception. The majority of converts to the Catholic Church are theologians who have studied the bible and read the Early Church Fathers. They make up the great influx into the Church of Jesus Christ vs the simple individual who wants to be his own pope.
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