Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Untrue. And since many Protestant churches have no set guidelines for Scripture readings, it is likely that you will mainly hear what the minister prefers.
What IS true is that you can read your Protestant Bible every day for the rest of your life and not hear the entire Bible because IT'S NOT ALL THERE.
>>Can we agree that all who leave the Catholic Church and become Protestant are essentially phonies who leave for selfish reasons and all who leave a Protestant Church for the Catholic Church do so for pure and holy reasons? <<
I think that anyone who leaves any denomination either had a bad experience in a church or were not properly taught.
I think that people are searching for what seems best for them. I know people who have switched and as long as they have a good relationship with Christ, I can’t say a thing.
Personal against whom?
I did not refer to anyone in particular.
It appears that only in eternity will some folks realize what a horrible fit their tidy little boxes were for me.
*********************
It won't be an eternity, it will only seem that way to those who continue to be subject to your repetitive posts.
Depends on geographic area, historical religious context etc.
I’ve known of extended families doing such. But I was speaking of nuclear families.
Are you prepared to prove that all your "rich" tradition came from Scripture and/or an Apostle?
It would appear that my best communication efforts failed yet again.
Sorry. I have no solution.
What a clever slick personal assault. Congrats.
Wellll given the rise in those convinced I’m besotted
I’m going off to be potted.
Thanks for your encouragements too, dear Sister in Christ.
“In EVERY Biblical case and in EVERY Heavenly visitation case . . .
where folks have prostrated themselves before men, angels etc.
The stern rebuke is that ONLY GOD is worthy such.”
Um no:
Genesis 33:1-4
“Jacob looked up and saw Esau coming, accompanied by four hundred men. So he divided his children among Leah, Rachel and the two maidservants, putting the maids and their children first, Leah and her children next, and Rachel and Joseph last. He himself went on ahead of them, bowing to the ground seven times, until he reached his brother. Esau ran to meet him, embraced him, and flinging himself on his neck, kissed him as he wept.”
Genesis 37:5-11
“Once Joseph had a dream, which he told to his brothers: ‘Listen to this dream I had. There we were, binding sheaves in the field, when suddenly my sheaf rose to an upright position, and your sheaves formed a ring around my sheaf and bowed down to it.’ ‘Are you really going to make yourself king over us?’ his brothers asked him. ‘Or impose your rule on us?’ So they hated him all the more because of his talk about his dreams. Then he had another dream, and this one, too, he told to his brothers. ‘I had another dream,’ he said; ‘this time, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.’ When he also told it to his father, his father reproved him. ‘What is the meaning of this dream of yours?’ he asked. ‘Can it be that I and your mother and your brothers are to come and bow to the ground before you?’ So his brothers were wrought up against him but his father pondered the matter.”
Genesis 42:6-9
“It was Joseph, as governor of the country, who dispensed the rations to all the people. When Joseph’s brothers came and knelt down before him with their faces to the ground, he recognized them as soon as he saw them. But he concealed his own identity from them and spoke sternly to them. ‘Where do you come from?” he asked them. They answered, “From the land of Canaan, to procure food.’ When Joseph recognized his brothers, although they did not recognize him, he was reminded of the dreams he had about them. He said to them: ‘You are spies. You have come to see the nakedness of the land.’”
We could continue, but prostration is not divine worship, and not uniformly condemned throughout the Bible.
Reading minds and attributing motives are forms of “making it personal.” Thin-skinned posters will be booted from “open” threads because in the town square, they are the disrupters.
The devil tries to decieve us and he is "the enemy". For example, I love and respect Saint Teresa for her love of the poor, I love Mother Mary for helping me become closer to Jesus. The devil tricks people into thinking that this love that Catholics have for those who also loved Jesus, is contrary to God's commandment. It isn't. Therefore I feel that only "the enemy" could trick people into believing that Jesus could be jealous of his loving mother. I don't agree that Protestants are inherently Catholic haters.
It is the deciet of the enemy that creates this anymosity among fellow Christians. We are all vulnerable. My husband thinks that non-Catholic christians are "cultish" type believers where a priest can pitch a tent and start preaching whatever. He thinks other faiths and filled with Rev. Wright type individuals. That isn't true. My mother thinks that protestants just wanted to be able to divorce freely, therefore, they rebelled. We are all always being decieved by the enemy. It doesn't make us bad people. My husband and mother are wonderfull.
Just following in your large footsteps.
What a terminally odd response! LOL.
Fascinating.
Yeah . . . I’m so terrible . . .
I use lots of
You’s, your’s,
about every other phrase in 90% of my sentences/posts.
/sar
But I doubt such issues are the most interesting available.
Guess I was making a distinction I wasn’t articulating.
Great catch.
It’s your “I”s and “Me”s that are most uninteresting.
This thread is not really about me.
I think I’ll bow out of enabling folks who wish to make it so.
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