Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
When they are fighting with each other, they are leaving His Children alone!
You are much more the scholar on such things than I.
The phrase COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOUR FEET . . .
Is it crystal clear that the worship focus is the men?
Or merely that the position of worship is prostrated before the men?
Is the meaning, emphasis on the focus of the worship
or is the core meaning and emphasis on the
prostration as punishment—in a posture, physical attitude demonstrative of worship of those the guilty would ever least like to be prostrated in front of???
And, of course, arguments have to be built a step at a time. So we are told it is NEVER EVER right for one man to kneel to another creature, and yet we have an example where it SEEMS that God says it is his will that one set of men kneel to another.
So now, if that step is accomplished, then we revise the proposition to accommodate that resolution and take the next step. Patience is our friend.
And in a responsible conversation, the self-indulgence of the blanket proclamation about it's never ever being right would be abandoned.
It is fair to note that the NEVER EVER language was wrong. It is not fair to make too much of that. But SOMETHING can be made of it.
imho,
nothing is missed.
They have the technologies and the manpower.
They may choose to ignore a percentage or whatever.
But one can be certain that sufficent eyes and ears are everywhere that nothing of significance will be missed and particularly not missed for long.
But I chose . . . in fact . . . it was policy . . . to live our lives quite blazingly open and transparent in virtually all respects.
Trying to fool folks in culture that has practiced Olympic class skills of that sort for many millenia . . . is a bit foolish at the start.
I have no idea what your question is, but I'm sure it is a message of brotherly love since you are a fellow Christian.
Paint with a broad brush much?
Did you know, by the way, that Magisterium is a proper noun and should be capitalized?
“Men loved the darkness because their deeds were evil.”
Here’s the link to the JUNE QUAKE prediction for off the coast of China:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353645/pg1';
I found it some days ago on
THE MOST RECENT THREADS listing which is one of the buttons near the top of the screen.
There’s a lot of chaff and not a great deal more info on that thread unless it’s been added recently.
FWIW
I do not bow to men or magisteriums.
“But I chose . . . in fact . . . it was policy . . . to live our lives quite blazingly open and transparent in virtually all respects.
“Trying to fool folks in culture that has practiced Olympic class skills of that sort for many millenia . . . is a bit foolish at the start.”
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Yes, we and most we work with over here are of the same mind as you. We’re not hiding. The ones that are hiding get almost nothing done. Our business is worth boxcar loads of risk.
I think some of the anti-Catholic bigots who disparage and deprecate Mary so obsessively are actually intimidated by her example and need to tear her down to avoid feeling so bad about themselves.
Others are mislead by anti-Scriptural lies like "sola scriptura," "sola fide" and "sola Machen."
Of course it is.
OF course, my loving kindnesses can come in all kinds of packages. LOL.
I just felt that your example/argument was a very false and flimsy straw dog without substance.
AMEN! As you so correctly point out to all those with eyes to see, “to God belongs ALL the glory.”
Step into the light.
>>So, I’m just curious, have you really known “dozens and dozens” of Catholics who have left the Church or is it really just a couple and you are rounding up again?<<
I’d say that ANY of those “dozens and dozens” didn’t have a clue that the Bible is read in every Holy Mass.
Those that I have known that did leave the Church, did it because they didn’t like the rules (birth control, divorce, church every Sunday, etc.) and use the “I was enlightened when I openned the Bible” excuse. When you question them on it, you find that they know squat about what they left.
Most of them jump from church to church, looking for someplace that fits their inability to follow rules.
I’ve met tons of ex-Catholics in the homeschooling groups. And tons of converts to the RCC. You should hear the things said about Protestants by them! One man has told me never to go to a Protestant church for fear that they will pollute my children. Yikes!
Unmitigated hogwash all over again.
Well, let's see. I married one of them. His family includes a dozen former Catholics who are now Protestant. My neighbor to the west and her family once were Catholic and are now all Protestant. My two neighbors across the street were once Catholic and now are Protestant. My neighbor to the east two doors down was once Catholic and is now Protestant.
And that includes all the spouses and children within those families.
Further, I know at least two dozen people at our church who were once Catholic and are now Protestant.
My best friend growing up came from an Irish Catholic family of six children. FIVE of the SIX CHILDREN and their entire families are now Protestant.
I could go on, but it's lunchtime. And I have a lunch appointment with a business associate who was born and raised Catholic who is now a Protestant married to a Protestant raising Protestant children.
As God wills, by His grace, for His glory.
You probably grew up in a culture that lacked tradition. That is fine. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be considerate and respect other traditions. The Japanese bow to each other as a salutation of respect. That is their tradition and doesn't mean they are going to hell.
Catholics also have a long history and a rich tradition. The Bible asks us to respect this. "Stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Other references: John 21:25, 2 Pet: 3:15-16, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 3:6
Do you capitalize Bill Clinton? Harry Reid? Satan? I bet you've capitalized the word Satan before.
I do not bow to men or magisteriums.
So you never capitalize men's names?
I find that very hard to believe.
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