Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You said: You gave in response (nonsense)3
Everything about Atheistic Christianity is nonsense. Any faith dynamic that makes God according the whims of the individual person’s scriptural interpretation is by it’s very nature nonsense and opposed to the will of God.
You say Esau was blessed and offer Genesis for support.
Since Esau was not blessed by God and was instead cursed by God and hated by God as later chapters in both the OT and NT illustrate, it makes a lot of sense to suggest that you read the rest of the book since it would appear that you've stopped at the first chapter.
It is not my aim to understand Calvinism. What would you say to a mother who’s child is dying? What comfort would Calvin offer?
“Well, if your daughter is one of the elect, and you are too, I guess you’ll meet in heaven. If not, you’ll meet in hell.”
It is my aim to understand how ANYONE could be a Calvinist.
Calvin’s God is dead. A puppet. A construct of sick old men’s imaginations.
PS, Calvin read with a warped viewpoint. A sick, deranged old man.
It can't hurt.
I've stated my belief on predestination dozens of times on this forum.
If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, then everything that happens occurs because, one way or another, it serves God's purpose which He ordained from before the foundation of the world.
"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10
I hope you read the link. It's not easy to pry our eyes off our own efforts and set them squarely on Christ alone from whom all blessings flow.
But it can be done. As God wills.
There was a time when the Roman Catholic church believed a lot more in God's predestination of all things. Sadly, they have gone the way of most everyone else who heralds men's choices over God's.
Does God know what dress you will wear tomorrow?
If so, what are the chances you'll go to your closet tomorrow and select that three-piece suit and matching hat?
Well, I dont know what to think, I truly dont...I just think that if every single facet of ones life from the cradle to the grave is predeterminded, from the most mundane things as what someone eats for breakfast, to the more important issues in life, than we humans are nothing but puppets, or robots, acting out a script written for us....I just dont get it...
Perhaps the links that I was provided, will provide some answers, perhaps not...
You said: It is my aim to understand how ANYONE could be a Calvinist.
The secret is to believe that YOU are one of the elect and all others are lost.
It is an exercise in establishing yourself as a sort of demi-God...all knowing, preserved from sin, the final arbiter of truth....God.
It is an illness.
Your posts are getting more and more churlish, Judith Anne.
Calm down. No one is going to hurt you. Put the knife down. Step away from the punch bowl. Release the cat.
Again with the insulting personal remarks, and again with no answers to questions. What would Calvin say to the mother of a dying child? "If you are both elect, you'll see your child in heaven. If not, your child will go to hell, and you will go to heaven as one of the elect. If neither of you are elect, you'll see your child in hell."
Is that about it?
I would offer them the solace of David who knew he would see his son again.
He's now a Calvinist.
Unfortunately, this is proving a theory by believing it. That would be akin to superstition i.e. I believe my sources are right, therefore I don't have to think beyond that point.
I would argue that we human beings are powerful spiritual creatures of God temporarily housed in human form. We are here for a purpose. If God did not endow us with free will, what would be the pint of being here. We would be puppets on a spritual string. If in fact we are made in the image and likeness of God, then we must have free will. That God, who is limitless beyond our ability to comprehend gave us free will, he knows what we will do, but he allows us tto choose. Our very nature proves that we must use reason (our higher powers) to get to God. If He pre-ordained our fate, we have no free will and all life is futile.
Thank you, dear Jesus, for making me your robot.
"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
No one knows who is reading this, who may be hurt, who may suffer.
And so far, there is no question to the problem of how to comfort the mother of the dying child—or wife of the dying man....
I have a hunch that most Calvinists drink a lot. What else is there to do? If one is elect, what difference does it make? If not, what difference does it make? A living death....
If this were the case, why are we even here?
And why would Calvinists try to "save" non-Calvinists? If everything is preordained, nothing they do one way or the other will affect the outcome one bit.
Mary and the Saints died. According to scripture, those of faith who die, including the saints, are "sleeping" beneath the Throne of God in Heaven until the time when Christ's church on earth (all of the believers, alive and dead) are raised up to join with Him in "The Wedding Feast of The Lamb" in heaven. Two quick points here:
1) It makes no sense to pray to someone who is dead, and asleep in Heaven until the Wedding Feast. There is nothing they can do for you.
2) Satan loves when we pray to Mary, or to the Saints, or when we confess our sins to a priest (instead of to God or Jesus, as the Bible tells us to), because those prayers and confessions fall on deaf ears because by performing them, we are being disobedient to God's instructions in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to pray to Mary, or the Saints, or to confess our sins to a priest.
We ARE told how to pray, and how to confess our sins, but there is no mention of Mary or Saints for prayer or priests for confession.
Instead, in the bible are numerous stories about times when men strayed from God's clear and perfect teachings, and re-invented God's Holy Word making up their own "religiosity" (the "golden calf," Gnosticism, etc). These stories inevitably end very badly for those who so choose.
It is a warning with a clear and often-repeated theme: DO NOT MAKE UP YOUR OWN RELIGION; DO WHAT GOD TELLS YOU TO DO IN THE BIBLE.
The bible warns against repeating prayers over and over "like the heathen," because this makes God very angry. Yet what does Catholicism preach? Say 10 "Our Fathers and 12"Hail Marys" and you'll be forgiven!!??
Get a grip. Catholicism is a Satanic cult created by Satan to fool people into believing they are saved when in fact they are not. There is no pretty way to say it, but the proof is in the pudding. When the Apostles asked Jesus how we can tell the real "church" from all the false ones that would spring up, He gave us two measures.
1) Compare their teachings to His teachings. I've done a bit of this up above here.
2) By their works we shall know them. (Father Porter, Father Gaguen, the list is too long to complete, but you get the point).
:-/
No secret.
And who says "all others are lost?" Not any Calvinist. Heaven is now and will be filled with His saints, all according to His mercy, and not debt.
It is an exercise in establishing yourself as a sort of demi-God.
Who's the demi-god? Someone who imagines his own good works can saved him, or someone who knows that the only good work which saves anyone is Christ on the cross?
How does a Calvinist KNOW that? Is there a secret password, that Calvinists get?
He's now a Calvinist.
Again with the personal remarks.
Calvin is dead, and so is his tin God.
How about Esau?
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