Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Does God know what we need before we ask Him?
Your lips to God's ear.
While that was once very true, it is not now.
So maybe it should have been said that some Calvinists believe officially that homosexuals should be ordained.
I have never once read of any professed Calvinist who believed in homosexuality, from the pulpit or the congregation.
When you find one, please let us all know.
Well, I remain hopeful, that some Calvinist will at least provide some information for me to contemplate...
I guess the bottom line of my question, is, is everything we do, everything we say, every single action we take, every thought that we have, predetermined to be such as it is...in other words, was I, were you, was everyone on this thread, made in such a way, so that we could do nothing other than what we do....was it predetermined, that I would be wearing a red shirt today, was it predetermined, that we are going to order pizza out tonite, because it is too hot to cook..was it predetermined that the dog next door, would almost drive me mad, with his incessant yapping?
I mean, I have read Calvinists points right here on FR, tho years ago, which stated exactly that...that every single thing, was predetermined in advance, and that nothing at all whatsoever, could occur, other than the way it was predetermined that it should occur...
So then, like you, I wonder if this predetermination is such as I perceive it to be, than truly what use would prayer be...if prayers for a sick person are offered, but it was predetermined that the sick person was going to get well anyway, why were the prayers necessary...or were the prayers predetermined as well?....and if this is so, then if everything, absolutely everything, is predetermined, it just appears to me, that each of us, fulfilling our predetermined roles, are doing nothing more, than fulfilling the roles of actors, acting according to a written script...
Perhaps I am in error here, which is why I have asked for clarification from anyone who is a Calvinist, or someone who correctly understands the Calvinist viewpoint, because obviously I dont understand it..I say I dont correctly understand the Calvinist viewpoint, because I can hardly believe that anyone who loves God, also believes that God has given us each a predetermined script and watches as we play out those roles...so I ask for someone to show me where I have erred in my thoughts and to point me towards the correct understanding...we shall see what happens...
It is still their choice.
Although the Calvinist denies her own free will, she has it anyway. That denial of free will is itself an exercise of free will.
No one "needs" to read Calvin. Everyone "needs" to read the Bible.
I enjoy reading the U.S. Constitution and believe every word of it.
But I also enjoy reading books about the U.S. Constitution.
Are those books equal to the Constitution? No. Do they amplify and honor the Constitution? Yes.
Does that mean that public prayer is evil?
Is this the level of your debating skills?
We're told to refrain from pridefully showing others our piety by kneeling and grimacing.
Prayer by the congregation on Sunday morning is Biblically-mandated.
No kneeling or grimacing required.
There's alot more to the story that you're missing.
Does the Holy Spirit lead all men to Christ?
Did Christ redeem all men?
No. No. No.
Free will
Free will
Free will
The Calvinist God is too small. He is a dead God, playing His own part in the eternal scene. Because He would not do anything different than what He has foreordained, He is dead, a mere idol without even a statue, made up of constructs from feeble men’s imaginations, made up to limit God, to control Him, to reassure themselves that they are “elect.”
I prefer the Living God, Who sent His Son that we may have life, and have it more abundantly. The same God Who created the surprise of love and Love, Who actively seeks and finds the lost sheep, and Who rejoice more over finding the one lost than all the others who are safe....
I LOVE the Living God, Who invites but never forces our love in return; the Living God Who assure us that He goes to prepare a place for us, that in His Father’s House are many mansions; Who is Lord of the storm, the snow, the sun, the rain, the flowers, the fertilizer, the Creator of all that is seen and unseen....
Who can put God in a little box, a tortured 18th century box of limits to His Power and Grace? Who can cram Him into a tiny book that holds every important word ever said about Him?
HOGWASH!!!! And I really mean it! God is our Friend, our Lover, our Savior, our Redeemer, our King, our Joy, as exuberant as geese flying north in the spring, as Hilarious as a kitten chasing a butterfly, as gentle as the kiss of a father on the brow of his newborn child—Calvinists! Your God is TOO SMALL!
My God is the God of mountains and caves, of ocean rivers and currents, of the leviathon, of the bacteria, of the atom, of the universe, the God of Time, and the God of Eternity. He can do whatever He wants, and Love is Who He IS.
/rant
A helpful understanding of predestination is given by the Westminster Confession of Faith.
I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold,[1] direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,[2] from the greatest even to the least,[3] by His most wise and holy providence,[4] according to His infallible foreknowledge,[5] and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,[6] to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.[7] II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;[8] yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.[9] III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,[10] yet is free to work without,[11] above,[12] and against them,[13] at His pleasure. IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;[14] and that not by a bare permission,[15] but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,[16] and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;[17] yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.[18] V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;[19] and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.[20] VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,[21] from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;[22] but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,[23] and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;[24] and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,[25] whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.[26] VII. As the providence of God does, in general, reach to all creatures; so, after a most special manner, it takes care of His Church, and disposes all things to the good thereof.[27]
I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1] II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3] III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7] IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10] V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]
Of Providence
Of Free Will
Scriptural proofs found at the site.
"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7
Nonsense.
Nonsense.
Nonsense.
As God wills.
When and if you ever get around to being able to actually answer those questions, ping me.
That is about what I expected.
I object to your insulting personal remark.
Well, I can see that this will take a goodly amount of time and thought to get through...
On the other hand tho, I was hoping for something from you, in your own words, concerning all of this...
Was it predetermined as some Calvinists have maintained, that I will be having pizza tonite for dinner, as that was predetermined...as I stated before, a Calvinist once told another poster, that he had such and such to eat for breakfast, because it was predetermined to be that way...now, that Calvinist was serious, not joking around...so in that light, does any Calvinist on this thread, think that it was predetermined that I am going to have pizza tonite for dinner...this is not a silly question, I think it really goes to the heart of the matter...
I guess I just do not understand this predestination view at all....and I dont know if what you have given me to read will help my understanding or not...
As I said, a personal answer, in your own words, would have, I think been more helpful...however, I shall take the time, when I can to read what you have linked me to...
The Calvinist God is a puppet of vicious, controlling, misogynist lunatics who loved to control people by their own deadening rules.
Don't feel bad, they redefine it at will to suit their needs.
And you're pretty shaky on understanding God, too.
Because He would not do anything different than what He has foreordained, He is dead
I suppose you think that makes sense? Why would God do something different than what He has foreordained? Does He err? Does He change His mind? Has something new occurred in the universe God wasn't aware of? Has some plan of His gone wrong and now He has to scramble to fix it?
Oh, dear, oh dear, what shall we do? God is all flummoxed.
You're not describing God of the Scriptures, but a quixotic, temperamental, changeable Zeus. Enjoy him.
These are pretty good questions, and Christians should be able to answer them.
Does God give faith to all men?
Does the Holy Spirit lead all men to Christ?
Did Christ redeem all men?
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