Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?
If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!" How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."
Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.
St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."
What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation. But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.
Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive! Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.
Amen.
A. Murphy: I've never seen any Catholic on FR claim this view before now.
Seems to me that pgyanke is speaking the truth, in spite of what is often said here on FR by other Catholics.
Let's look at divorce. Scripture forbids it. The RC church forbids it. But, we all know that there needs to be a mechanism to allow a marriage to break up. Voila! Let's invent something called an annulment and have Rome mediate. Rome can allow a marriage to break up, but not divorce. This allows for multiple proximate meanings as defined by Rome.
Even after I became Catholic I had a kind of automatic shudder at things like the Miraculous Medal until Easter Saturday of 2007. I had been on a quite day at the Dominican House of Studies in DC which is right across the street from the Basilica in DC.
After the quiet day (more like a quiet morning) we all went across to the Basilica to see the sites.
Having had foot surgery on both feet a month before (the doc broke 2 bones per foot) I was getting pretty sore. So I sat to rest in the little Miraculous Medal/Catherine Laboure Chapel which has all the aesthetic grace of the old TWA Terminal at Kennedy airport and which sports a statue of our Lady carved by someone who obviously hates women and is suspicious of beauty.
And I had a "religious experience". I don't like to go into it, so I won't but if you ever want a Miraculous Medal, frmail me. I give away at least one a month.
Now that’s funny.
This has been discussed into the ground. Dante has non-Catholics in Heaven. He didn't get in trouble for that.
Whether you agree with us or not, OUR thinking, FWIW, about the Church is that it is not just some association of like-minded people, like Rotarians with hymns. The whole company of Heaven make up the largest part of the Church. By definition, if you're in heaven, you're in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I'm not asking you to agree, only to understand that what our thought structure is when we say you can't be in Heaven without being in the Church.
If you want to know what we think and have thought BEFORE you disagree with it, The next to latest First Things has an article by Cardinal Dulles which gives a whirl-wind tour of the past couple of millenia of Catholic thought on the matter.
Again, I don't recommend this in an attempt to persuade you of the rightness of our position, but to assist you if you would care to know what our position actually is.
Not really. I think "Catholic" is more precise than "catholic" and would suggest its use as a specific and non-controversial term.
I guess part of the deal in church terms is that they are almost inescapable controversial, and if used in a polemical way they can create a high heat to light ratio. I imagine this is because the terms are often adopted to make a clear distinction: "Episcopal" because it's a body with Bishops, "Presbyterian" because they don't have bishops, Baptists because they have what once was an unusual teaching on Baptism.
So someone who wanted to tanlge could waste a lot of time saying, "HAH! SO! All that matters to you is church polity, huh? If not, then why call yourselves "congregational" (or whatever)?"
And that is about the level of seriousness of many exchanges here. Kid stuff.
BTTT!
Your impression is malformed.
There is always some writing somewhere, some place which supports a particular position.
And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. – Acts 1:4-8
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. – Acts 11:16
The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: - I Peter 3:21
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. – John 3:6-8
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
Truly, only the new Spiritual creature we become by baptism of the Holy Spirit can enter heaven.
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. – I Corinthians 15:42-45
This is something wonderfully consistent from you. You reject the Catholic Church, so why not reject the word of its earliest fathers: the Apostles themselves.
Still, I am staggered by the arrogance: the Apostles are wrong, but you are right?
LOL
Here is the simplicity of the Good News as understood by the Church: The Church is the Bride of Christ (Eph 5). This isn’t just a metaphor, it is a metaphysical reality as the fullness of this truth reaches from Genesis to Revelation. St Paul, dealing with this subject with the Ephesians, even quotes extensively from Genesis on what it means to be married. Without filling this post with quote after quote from the Bible, I will paraphrase the doctrine as from the beginning that the Groom and Bride are joined in one flesh.
How can it be that we are the Body of Christ? Were we made into His Holy Toes or Fingernails (I would assume I am but a hang-nail)? Or is it better understood that we are the Body of Christ by our membership in the Bone of His Bone and Flesh of His Flesh which is His Bride, the Church? Here I offer an article on the Church which will do a much better job at explaining our view of the Church than I can do in this limited space. Suffice it to say that there are a couple of references to the Church in the New Testament pointing to Her role as the pillar and bulwark of truth. I shared one such citation earlier in this thread, here is another: Eph 3:10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church…
So let’s talk about typology… the study of types in the Bible. Jesus is called the new or “last” Adam. Adam was keeper of the Garden of Eden. He was priest, prophet and king (priest as the keeper of the Garden; prophet in that He walked with God; and king in that he was created with dominion over all creation). He was a “type” of Christ. However, he disobeyed God and did what was evil. He didn’t receive a stain on his soul to be passed on through all generations… he lost his kinship with God. This kinship is the life-giving Grace of God. As God had said (and the Devil rebuked) that Adam would surely die if he ate of the tree. He did die… spiritually. He lost the gift of life in God’s Grace.
God then set about His Plan of Salvation right from the fall when He gave us the Protoevangelium promise that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. This was fulfilled in Christ on the Cross. I’ll come back to this…
Another type is Moses. At his birth, he was protected from Pharoah’s edict for the destruction of Jewish children. He was called out of Egypt. He was sent to deliver Israel from bondage and lead them to the promised land. He was told to shepherd God’s people in the wilderness. He was the mediator of the Covenant and, though not a king, he ruled Israel as priest and prophet. I don’t think I need to explain how these types find their fulfillment in Jesus… The Evangelists understood clearly when they referenced OT passages (such as “Out of Egypt I called my Son) regarding NT fulfillments.
King David was another type in the OT. He established the Davidic kingdom and received the Davidic Covenant of an everlasting dynasty to be fulfilled in Christ. He ruled the twelve tribes as priest, prophet and king.
This is typology. It is a study of imperfect realizations of prophecy in the Old Testament which find their ultimate fulfillment in the NT. It is not a license to twist the clear language of Scripture, it is a deep study of Scripture in context.
In the beginning, the Earth was without form and void. God set about tackling each of these problems in turn. In the first three days, he took care of the form (Day 1: Light and Dark; Day 2: Sea and Sky; Day 3: Land and Vegetation) then in the second three days, he took care of the void by filling these forms with rulers (Day 4: Sun, moon and stars to rule the day and night; Day 5: Fish and birds to rule the sea and sky; Day 6: Animals and man to rule the land). Like any builder, He began with the end in mind… what was created last was the object of creation. Creation was made for man. On the seventh day God rested… not because He was tired but to seal His Creation in His Covenant and as a promise to man of his eventual destiny to rest in God in Heaven. The number seven is a sign of God's covenant throughout Scripture.
A covenant is a forming of a family bond. It’s not just a contractual arrangement. In a contract, goods and services are exchanged (this is mine, that is yours). In a covenant, persons are exchanged (I am yours and you are mine). Covenant differs from contract like marriage differs from prostitution. There are numerous examples in the OT of covenants forming family bonds between people. So in this Creation account and the sealing of Creation in the Covenant sign, God bonded creation to Himself and all was “good” as He called it. The fall of man changed that and severed that bond.
Here’s where I’ll share something that I’ve been thinking about but haven’t fully fleshed out. Bear with me…
From Adam, we have an unbroken line of succession through Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham and all the way to Christ because it was to Adam that the promise of redemption was given. In the flood, I see God starting Creation over again. Just as the Earth was without form and void at the beginning, we still have the form but He has made it void again. He makes His Covenant with Noah in the sign of the rainbow (did you ever notice there are seven primary colors in the rainbow?). This is the first covenant of the re-creation.
From here, I see God taking the same approach as in the first Creation account. He will make a three-fold promise and then fulfill them each in turn.
We next get the second covenant of our recreation in Abraham shown by the sign of the circumcision. He is promised the land of Canaan, a royal dynasty and through him all the nations will be blessed.
We get the third covenant with Isaac when God confirms His Promises to Abraham. Why the need for this covenant so soon after the other? Ishmael. God makes it clear that He is following one particular line, not all the descendents of Abraham.
The fourth covenant is with Jacob with the same promises and for the same reason as the last… Esau.
The fifth covenant is mediated by Moses to the children of Israel (Jacob). They are made a nation to take possession of the land of Canaan as promised to Abraham. The sign of this covenant is the Sabbath. Don’t get me wrong, this one gets very complicated with the failings of the children of Israel, but then I would be here typing for a month if I get into all of that. I’m dealing strictly with the covenants of Salvation… not, for example, with a covenant of Peace which God made with another.
The sixth covenant is with David. He is confirmed an everlasting royal dynasty as had been promised to Abraham.
The seventh covenant (The New Covenant) in the fullness of time is mediated by Christ (the new Adam) with us all. It is the covenant-making marriage of the Lamb to His Bride, the Church. Through it, all nations are blessed… as was promised to Abraham. Through this Covenant, God and man are reconciled into kinship again. The sign of this covenant is Baptism where we are reborn into His Family, taking on His Name (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and the rest of the seven-fold Sacraments. The bond that was broken by the sin of Adam was reforged in the obedience of Christ... and it is finished.
It is finished, the bond is reforged... but salvation isn't over yet. We are still here. Just as our birth is the beginning of our lives, so our rebirth is the beginning of life in Christ.
Now we are to believe in Him to be saved. I think our real problems come from what it means to believe. Some take this as an inward acknowledgement... but I would respectfully remind those who think this way that the Devil believes too. He knows Who is God and who is not. Belief is more than knowing in your heart of hearts that Jesus is Lord. It is an action word. Jesus told us that His Disciples are those who do the Will of His Heavenly Father. He also said that there will be many who will cry out to Him, "Lord, Lord" who will not see the Kingdom of Heaven. My children can't just believe it is good for them to work hard in school... they have to get up and work hard in school. Belief requires action.
That’s probably enough for one post… God bless you.
No accident this is the water planet.. Quite divine no doubt..
Baptism is a link between the body and the spirit.. even the Spirit..
The word nudges even weans our minds from the natural to the spiritual..
Baptism is a brilliant spiritual gambit.. for teaching..
Is GOD cool or what?..
This practice is known as "The Game."
You're understanding of the apostles teaching may be FLAWED..
Yes and others with a like minded bent..
Hey it happens..
Whole denominations can become eye rolling tongue hanging out drooling, christian primitives.. You don't have to be smart to be a sheep.. (John ch 10).. The sheep pens hold the SMART ONES...
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