Posted on 10/26/2007 9:00:59 PM PDT by topcat54
Replacement theology has become dispensationalism's latest prophetic boogeyman. If you want to end a debate over eschatology, just charge your opponent with holding to replacement theology. What is “replacement theology,” sometimes called “supersessionism,” and why do dispensationalists accuse non-dispensationalists of holding it? Here’s a typical dispensational definition:
Replacement Theology: a theological perspective that teaches that the Jews have been rejected by God and are no longer God’s Chosen People. Those who hold to this view disavow any ethnic future for the Jewish people in connection with the biblical covenants, believing that their spiritual destiny is either to perish or become a part of the new religion that superseded Judaism (whether Christianity or Islam).1
“Replacement theology” is dispensationalism’s trump card in any debate over eschatology because it implies anti-semitism. Hal Lindsey attempted to use this card in his poorly researched and argued The Road to Holocaust.2 He wove an innovative tale implying that anyone who is not a dispensationalist carries the seeds of anti-semitism within his or her prophetic system. This would mean that every Christian prior to 1830 would have been theologically anti-semitic although not personally anti-semtic.
As Peter Leithart and I point out in The Legacy of Hatred Continues,3 it’s dispensationalists who hold to a form of replacement theology since they believe that Israel does not have any prophetic significance this side of the rapture! Prior to the rapture, in terms of dispensational logic, the Church has replaced Israel. This is unquestionably true since God’s prophetic plan for Israel has been postponed until the prophetic time clock starts ticking again at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week which starts only after the Church is taken to heaven in the so-called rapture. Until then, God is dealing redemptively with the Church. Am I making this up? Consider the following by dispensationalist E. Schuyler English:
An intercalary4 period of history, after Christ’s death and resurrection and the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, has intervened. This is the present age, the Church age. . . . During this time God has not been dealing with Israel nationally, for they have been blinded concerning God’s mercy in Christ. . . . However, God will again deal with Israel as a nation. This will be in Daniel’s seventieth week, a seven-year period yet to come.5
According to English and every other dispensationalist, the Church has replaced Israel until the rapture. The unfulfilled promises made to Israel are not fulfilled until after the Church is taken off the earth. Thomas Ice, one of dispensationalism’s rising stars, admits that the Church replaces Israel this side of the rapture: “We dispensationalists believe that the church has superseded Israel during the current church age, but God has a future time in which He will restore national Israel ‘as the institution for the administration of divine blessings to the world.’”6
Dispensationalists claim that their particular brand of eschatology is the only prophetic system that gives Israel her proper place in redemptive history. This is an odd thing to argue since two-thirds of the Jews will be slaughtered during the post-rapture tribulation, and the world will be nearly destroyed. Charles Ryrie writes in his book The Best is Yet to Come that during this post-rapture period Israel will undergo “the worst bloodbath in Jewish history.”7 The book’s title doesn’t seem to very appropriate considering that during this period of time most of the Jews will die! John Walvoord follows a similar line of argument: “Israel is destined to have a particular time of suffering which will eclipse any thing that it has known in the past. . . . [T]he people of Israel . . . are placing themselves within the vortex of this future whirlwind which will destroy the majority of those living in the land of Palestine.”8 Arnold Fruchtenbaum states that during the Great Tribulation “Israel will suffer tremendous persecution (Matthew 24:15–28; Revelation 12:1–17). As a result of this persecution of the Jewish people, two-thirds are going to be killed.”9
During the time when Israel seems to be at peace with the world, she is really under the domination of the antichrist who will turn on her at the mid-point in the seven-year period. Israel waits more than 2000 years for the promises finally to be fulfilled, and before it happens, two-thirds of them are wiped out. Those who are charged with holding a “replacement theology viewpoint” believe in no inevitable future Jewish bloodbath. In fact, we believe that the Jews will inevitably embrace Jesus as the Messiah this side of the Second Coming. The fulfillment of Zechariah 13:8 is a past event. It may have had its fulfillment in the events leading up to and including the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Contrary to dispensationalism’s interpretation of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus' disciples warned the Jewish nation for nearly forty years about the impending judgment (Matt. 3:7; 21:42–46; 22:1–14; 24:15–22). Those who believed Jesus’ words of warning were delivered “from the wrath to come” (1 Thess. 1:10). Those who continued to reject Jesus as the promised Messiah, even though they had been warned for a generation (Matt. 24:34), “wrath has come upon them to the utmost” (1 Thess. 2:16; cf. 1 Thess. 5:1–11; 2 Pet. 3:10–13).
Before critics of replacement theology throw stones, they need to take a look at their own prophetic system and see its many lapses in theology and logic.
Read Part Two of this article...
2. Hal Lindsey, The Road to Holocaust (New York: Bantam Books, 1989). The address for Bantam Books is 666 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York.
3. Gary DeMar and Peter J. Leithart, The Legacy of Hatred Continues: A Response to Hal Lindsey’s The Road to Holocaust (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 1989).
4. Inserted into the calendar.
5. E. Schuyler English, A Companion to the New Scofield Reference Bible (New York: Oxford University Press, 1972), 135.
6. Thomas Ice, “The Israel of God,” The Thomas Ice Collection: www.raptureready.com/featured/TheIsraelOfGod.html#_edn3
7. Charles C. Ryrie, The Best is Yet to Come (Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1981), 86.
8. John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1962), 107, 113. Emphasis added.
9. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, “The Little Apocalypse of Zechariah,” The End Times Controversy: The Second Coming Under Attack, eds. Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 2003), 262.
You say that this was fulfilled when He came in 70 AD but His coming then was just not in the flesh. Well here is what John says about your confession:"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." [I John 4:2,3]
John was referring to the original coming, the incarnation, in opposition to false teachers who maintained that he only seemed to be a man.
The text does not limit itself to the original coming --
Those verses are about as plain as any in the Bible. I don't see how any other interpretations can be wrung from those sentences. The "original coming" is clearly what is being discussed.
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God, and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." [I John 4:2,3] "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
IOW, the verse tells us...
Here's how you know if a man is indwelled by the Holy Spirit. If a man professes that Jesus Christ has been born and stood among us as God and man, then he is a true believer. If a man denies that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has been born and lived among us, then that person is actually denying the Holy Spirit (the unpardonable sin) and he is an anti-Christ.
I'm generally a KJV-only reader, but let's see what the NIV says...
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." -- 1 John 4:1-3"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Not at all ambiguous in either version.
Yes, as 1000 years are as one day to the Lord, so we are now and yet in the Day of Salvation.
Yes amen Dr. (Boy, talk about mangling the verses and the plain meaning...especially the verse that every Christian proclaims.) It seems that Chip and others now want to claim we are the anti-Christ, because we believe the plain truth of scripture
NO.
Another Falsehood.
I essentially asserted that the Replacementarian perspective shared a lot in common with the Communist and globalist perspectives as I’d experienced and studied them.
I noted the points I thought were in common and hypothesized that CONTROL was a common feature.
However, if someone wants to wear a shoe that fits . . . I believe in feet being comfortable.
Where does it say in those verses that it is referring only to the original coming??? or to the original coming at all???
My belief is
that such globalist communist forces
HAVE
used such perspectives in the past;
ARE
using such perspectives now;
AND WILL USE
such perspectives increasingly in coming years
to the destructiveness of individuals and of authentic Christians as much as God allows.
“The visible evidence of this event on the earth was the ending of the old covenant system as represented by the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the old temple”
So, according to this interpretation the old covenant and the new covenant overlapped for approximately 40 years. The high priest at the time Jesus told him he would see “the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven” and the nation of Israel recognized that the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple was caused by Jesus “coming in the clouds” and venting his wrath on the nation for their rejection and they further recognized that the old covenant was now void and the new covenant promised in Ezekiel was in effect.
Do you have any evidence that any of the priesthood, let alone the high priest, recognized that the destruction of the temple was the judgment on Israel for the rejection of Jesus or that it was caused by “the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven”? All of the evidence is that Israel picked up the pieces in the dispersion and continued their worship, substituting ethical sacrifices for blood sacrifices. If this 70 A.D. “coming on the clouds of heaven” was supposed to be the sign to Israel of judgment, it seems to have missed the mark. It would seem that if it was supposed to be the wrath of God visited on Israel someone would have got the message that the game was up and God was really mad but it seems to have missed them, so why tell them it is coming if they were not going to learn the lesson?
“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” [II John 7]
How about you??? Do you claim that Jesus came in 70 AD but not in the flesh???”
That’s a very intellectually dishonest statement. I’m sure you know that ALL Christians believe Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or they wouldn’t be Christians.
The above verse is about Christ’s FIRST coming, and you know it.
“It seems that Chip and others now want to claim we are the anti-Christ, because we believe the plain truth of scripture.”
Consider the source. I’ve read his posts and I’m not surprised he’d come up with that one eventually.
A football metaphor may help us clarify the three eschatological perspectives:Don't know about you, but I want to be in on what my God is up to. I want a piece of the action!
- Post-mil Christians have confidence in the Coach and His game plan. We assume we are playing for keeps, and playing to win. Our confidence in the coach translates into energy in the field.
- A-mil Christians assume that the most we can hope for is a tie. Their game never gets too far past the 50 yard line.
- Pre-mil Christians huddle in their own end zone, waiting for a helicopter ride to the other end of the field -- at which point they plan to congratulate one another on what a terrific game they played.
The first part of the statement above remains a brazen falsehood.
The 2nd part posted above remains a brazen falsehood as well.
The associations and observed FACTS about the similarities and historical, current and logical future uses of such a perspective as the REPLACEMENTARIAN one are
HYPER-CONVINCING
the REPLACEMENTARIAN perspective
The proponents of the perspective have had umpteen upon umpteen threads and thousands of posts to demonstrate otherwise and the examples, instead, get brazenly worse and worse. One begins to wonder whether there's a true interest, provision, tolerance for the TRUTH of Scripture really resident within the thought system much at all.
Or is it all such a slick TRADITION OF MEN/DOCTRINE OF DEMONS foisted from the pit of hell so smoothly that unwitting otherwise authentic Christians have just swallowed it hook line and sinker as so many did "Higher Criticism" a century or two ago.
I'm convinced that there are psychodynamic and sociological reasons at work as well but the real rot must be a slick deception in the demonic realm as outlined above. A number of the proponents, at least hereon, are, to my mind, mostly earnest authentic believers truly seeking to know and walk with God.
On the other hand, even with some of them, the flavors, nuances, . . . something . . . of the presentation of the horrible Scripture mangling PERSISTENTLY HAVE VIRTUALLY ALL the earmarks of hell as origin. That's hard to explain--even given the most charitable desire to do so in a favorable light . . . unless what I've described above has more than a little basis in fact.
The answers to what you seek are here:
Matthew 24
The Destruction of the Temple Foretold24As Jesus came out of the temple and was going away, his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2Then he asked them, ‘You see all these, do you not? Truly I tell you, not one stone will be left here upon another; all will be thrown down.’
Signs of the End of the Age3 When he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?’ 4Jesus answered them, ‘Beware that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, “I am the Messiah!”* and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumours of wars; see that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines* and earthquakes in various places: 8all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.
Persecutions Foretold9 ‘Then they will hand you over to be tortured and will put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name. 10Then many will fall away,* and they will betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. 13But anyone who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this good news* of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world, as a testimony to all the nations; and then the end will come.
The Desolating Sacrilege15 ‘So when you see the desolating sacrilege standing in the holy place, as was spoken of by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then those in Judea must flee to the mountains; 17someone on the housetop must not go down to take what is in the house; 18someone in the field must not turn back to get a coat. 19Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great suffering, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, “Look! Here is the Messiah!”* or “There he is!”—do not believe it. 24For false messiahs* and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25Take note, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, “Look! He is in the wilderness”, do not go out. If they say, “Look! He is in the inner rooms”, do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
The Coming of the Son of Man29 ‘Immediately after the suffering of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of heaven will be shaken.
30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see “the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven” with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The Lesson of the Fig Tree32 ‘From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you know that he* is near, at the very gates. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
The Necessity for Watchfulness36 ‘But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son,* but only the Father. 37For as the days of Noah were, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark, 39and they knew nothing until the flood came and swept them all away, so too will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40Then two will be in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41Two women will be grinding meal together; one will be taken and one will be left. 42Keep awake therefore, for you do not know on what day* your Lord is coming. 43But understand this: if the owner of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.
The Faithful or the Unfaithful Slave45 ‘Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves* their allowance of food at the proper time? 46Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. 47Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions. 48But if that wicked slave says to himself, “My master is delayed”, 49and he begins to beat his fellow-slaves, and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know. 51He will cut him in pieces* and put him with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
”Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Now that is the plain truth of the scripture...
So why do you keep saying you believe the plain truth of the scripture??? The plain truth of the scripture says when Jesus comes at His 2nd coming, they will see Him...You can't get any more plain than that...
Therefore, you DO NOT believe the plain truth of the scripture...
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven
And you don't believe God here either...
So God sent his multitudes of angels from one end of Heaven to the other and collected his 'elect', including those on and in the earth
And then what did He do with them???
You don't believe that happend...And that's more plain truth of the Bible...
It appears that the plain truth of the scripture has escaped you...
GREAT Scriptures . . . as an answer to which question?
Thx.
Almost...Except the 'Coach' is the one with the game plan...
In fact, we are not in the end zone...We're on the bench...
The 'Coach' centered the ball for us...He then received the ball from the center, mimicked a handoff to Himself coming thru the backfield (which completey faked out the Preterists on the defensive team); He then faded back and passed to the downfield receiver, the 'Coach' and the 'Coach' cart-wheeled in for the TD...
We did't even have to play...We won before we started...
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
We won before the coin was tossed...We have already overcome...And it won't be a helicoptor...It'll be superdupersonic, turbo-charged space shuttle and we're going to enjoy the ride...
There'll also be room for the defeated teams...Hope yer on the flight...
Well, I’m a Dominion kind of guy, and you know my heart. Without being contentious, let me say a couple of things.
Personally, I see victory in the progress of the church- notably from the Reformation (on Oct. 31, calculating from the date of the 95 theses, we just completed a 490 year cycle, btw- 70x7 years...) on into the new season we’re in. As we continue to slough off the trappings of tradition and religion, and get more in tune with the ruling anointing of every believer being a priest/prophet/king, we see greater influence and leverage in society. Not necessarily as the institutional church, but rather as individuals walking in power among the halls of law, education, board rooms, extending even to back alleys and every place in between. (The key here is walking in the power of the Spirit.)
Even in China, as you personally know very well, the underground church exercises great authority- enough to drive the commies to fear them, thus the persecution.
The escapist, denial theology of the Madeline Murray O’Hare era is thankfully being rejected, as we embrace the revelation and responsibility of sonship and being a joint/heir. It’s a progressive revelation to be sure, but the strength of the former rain shall even be overshadowed by what is coming to us now.
Does it mean that every President throughout history will be a holy roller? No, but neither was Pharaoh during Joseph’s time. Yet YHWH had His way.
Now, I understand that it’s not all dancing through the daffodils, there will be lives, blood and treasure lost, but the Kingdom of God will advance into and overtake the kingdoms of this world. Christ in us, I believe, will accomplish this- as opposed to Christ personally after He physically comes back. I have to think like this, because anything less would be abdicating my commission from Him.
Anyway, I love you greatly. You seem to be one of the ones who actually does the Word (the rhema) as much as you proclaim it, which makes you a Kingdom builder anyway! :)
So believing that Jesus came in 70 AD, although not in the flesh, but in some other sense, is "the plain truth of scripture"??? Is that what you are confessing here??? that Jesus did have a coming after his physical coming, but not like his physical coming. This other coming was ethereal, not physical, not in the flesh.
Well John's epistle is also the plain truth of scripture and he calls your preteristic Gnosticism just exactly what it is. Your problem is not with me but with the "plain truth of scripture".
And BTW, I remember just a few posts back your denying that you know what a Preterist believes and now you are including yourself squarely in the camp of Preterism. What happened??? did you find a few more petals on that dandelion of yours: "I'm a preterist.. I'm a preterist not .. I'm a preterist ..." If the flower fits, wear it.
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