Posted on 09/15/2007 11:47:41 AM PDT by restornu
Click Video- Learn how DNA was able to sort out and match the DDS fragments
Sure they did, but then man took them out. The Catholics are right on this one!
Trust his words all you want; but as for me, I'll trust in what Jesus has said.
Always good advice! If I find where Jesus said to discard his words, I will. And just so you know, Paul mentions Enoch's great faith as the reason he was translated, and that he pleased God (Hebrews 11:5) so it's not just Jude that mentions him.
Yes He has, why do you think the bible exists? Where did all these records come from if not written down for the Lords purposes?
Then ALL nations have records of the TRUTH of GOD?
The ones that God has spoken to, yes. See verse 11 again, they write the words the Lord speaks to them.
I like it!
Can you imagine?
I appreciate your fervor & respect your beliefs but your indignant tone does you a disservice when faced w/ viable alternatives to you beliefs. Reno 232 Written like a true blind servant of Satan! Indignant? HAH! How about get thee behind us, Satan!
This Mormon poster wants all to consider Mormonism the most pure restored form of Christianity. The poster makes post after post seeking to sow doubt and create confusion for a new Christian, a weak Christian, or a seeker about Christ, into which doubt the Mormonism Apologists are quick to spread their demon seed of Mormonism and Joseph Smithism heresies. Let no one doubt these apologists are all about trying to destroy any good seed which may have fallen upon stony ground or amongst weeds, to be supplanted with the fertile heresies of Mormonism. Mormonism is not Christianity; Mormonism is a false look-a-like using the name Jesus Christ as a means to fool the unwary and stumble those weak in their faith of Jesus Christ. 'Viable alternatives'? That is the stuff of demonic work, seeking to sow doubt and confusion, clearly.
Are you claiming that C.S. Lewis was a Mormon?
I said in the OT Moses spoke to Jehovah (Jesus). and than I pointed out in the NT and JSH that Heavenly Father introduce his only begotten Son.
Ok, let's review.
Someone posted:
Those who claim Joseph Smith saw the Father and the Son, fail to grasp basics in Scripture or intend to deceive.
YOUR response to that was:
You forget that Moses did see God face to face and even return with a red face and covered his face
You say no man has seen God and that is true but God can elevate a man from his mortal status to a transfiguration for a period of time.
It is quite clear that you are stating that Moses saw GOD, and you are trying to use that as "proof" that indeed Joseph Smith did see GOD along with His Son, Jesus Christ. You used and many other Mormons have used this to rebut Christians who bring up the Biblical passage that says "NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD". The typical response is "well, Moses saw God "face to face", so it's obvious man CAN see God, so that is why the argument that Joseph Smith could not have seen God is bogus". Indeed, you try to explain how it is that Moses and Joseph Smith could have seen God if the Bible says NO MAN has seen God by coming up with "God can elevate a man from his mortal status to a transfiguration for a period of time." Again, you are obviously stating that this is what happened to Moses and Joseph Smith, allowing them to see GOD.
Now then, I will simply point out what I pointed out before. According to LDS doctrine, Moses DID NOT SEE GOD. And DON'T play word games here. When you say GOD, you and every Mormon is talking about GOD the Father, not His Son, Jesus Christ, so don't even go there. According to LDS doctrine, Moses saw Jehovah and NOT GOD the Father. So how does Moses seeing Jehovah in any way lend credibility to Joe Smith's story that he saw GOD the Father???
It doesn't. I'll repeat my earlier statement. Mormons who try this argument are either trying to be deceptive or don't know their own doctrine.
Now then, would you agree that Moses did NOT see God the Father and therefore in NO WAY proves that Joe Smith nor any other man has seen the "face" of God?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1897091/posts?page=403#403
Here’s C.S. Lewis’s quote again:
C. S. Lewis, considered by many as the twentieth century’s foremost proponent of “orthodox” Christianity and quoted elsewhere by the authors, claimed, “There are no ordinary people. We live in a society of possible gods and goddesses” (Weight of Glory, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company [Grand Rapids, Michigan], pp. 1P15)...
This is why I actually believe that GOOD for the glory of God will come out of Mitt Romney running for President. First of all, REAL Mormon doctrine (not the milk in the Book of Mormon that the LDS Church doesn't even follow) is being exposed RIGHT HERE and many other places. Many uninformed people are asking "so, what DOES the LDS Church teach?" and they are finding out. Finding out now before the 2 guys in suits knocks on their door can only help to equip them with the truth and help them to avoid falling for the "bait and switch" game the LDS Church plays.
As the unorthodox beliefs of the LDS Church become MAINSTREAM knowledge, they will have a very hard time gaining new converts, except for those born into the Church. Heck, they are already having a very hard time and their growth rate has been dropping dramatically. This will only increase now.
Ultimately, with more of their dirty laundry aired, the LDS Church will have little choice if they continue to desire to be considered a "Christian" church. They will have to continue backing off their doctrines that are in direct contradiction to orthodox Christianity. When you think about it, the LDS Church has been trying to move closer to Christianity ever since getting rid of polygamy. Offering priesthood to blacks is a major example, as is the altering of their temple ceremonies.
The parts of the LDS temple ceremonies that were most offensive to Christians and publicized WERE REMOVED without notice by the LDS Church. The implications for Mormons here is enormous. If the previous temple ceremony was indeed given by God, then the LDS Church had no business changing it. If the ceremony was in error, then that means Joseph Smith was in error when he set it up in the first place. It would also mean that the Christians who were saying "Hey, that is outrageous!" were RIGHT and the LDS Church was WRONG. Again, that would mean Christians have a better knowledge of what God wants in a Mormon temple ceremony than the Mormon Church itself.
Just as the RLDS Church has moved in the direction of becoming a more Christian church, I see the LDS Church doing the same, and Romney's running can only expedite the move, even if indirectly and unintentionally.
I’m not a betting man, but if I were, I’d place a sizable wager against your predictions.
At least the FAIR author could admit what you failed to.
The verses you quote are of course taken out of context, or not even applicable.
It seem only a few in their own minds here who are anit LDS think that the LDS are not knowledgeable about our Faith.
Those converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints had a witness from the Holy Ghost and it was written in our souls from birth the truth!
Now the many things that the Bible reported and the things MS was reporting did not compute!
That is why we are seekers!
To be honest it never occured to me to look towards the Mormon but I am thankful God did not give up on me!
Eveyone of us who have a testamony knows our Master voice!
All things you fine offensive and have taken our of context or presents in an unfavoable light, is music to our ears!
Everytime the Church is kicked the more coververts we receive because after investigating those who are His fine their way home!
So this election is a good for those seeking the Lord!
Critics claim that the doctrine of human deification is unbiblical, false, and arrogant.
Related claims include:
The first thing we must realize when we study this principle is that
A belief in human deification does not mean that the LDS believe their worship is or will be properly directed at anyone but God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ.
Non-LDS church historian Ernst Benz insisted that the doctrine of deification was present in the early Church, and pointed out a potential risk for those who do not understand it:
Critics insist that the doctrine of theosis is unBiblical and unChristian. Unfortunately for the critics, a review of Christian history illustrates that this doctrine was and is a common belief of many Christians; modern critics are perhaps the exception, rather than the rule.
Saint Irenaeus (AD 180), who may justly be called the first Biblical theologian among the ancient Christians, was a disciple of the great Polycarp, who was a direct disciple of John the Revelator.[3] Irenaeus is not a heretic or unorthodox in traditional Christian circles, yet he shares a belief in theosis:
Like the LDS, Irenaeus did not believe that this belief in any way displaced God, Christ, or the Holy Ghost:
Yet, Irenaeus—whom it is absurd to exclude from the ranks of orthodox Christians—believed in theosis in terms which agree with LDS thinking on the matter:
Also:
And:
And:
And, Irenaeus considers the doctrine clearly Biblical, just as the LDS do:
Further quotes from Irenaeus available here.
Said one Protestant theologian of Irenaeus:
Clement (AD 150-215), an early Christianleader in Alexandria, also taught the doctrine of deification:
And:
Justin the Martyr said in 150 A.D. that he wishes
In 347, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria and participant in the council of Nicea, said:
He also states that Christ "became man that we might be made divine." [17]
Augustine (354-430), considered one of the greatest Christian Fathers, said
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) also described the deification of believers as an act of grace, which matches the LDS understanding precisely:
Jerome goes on to say that we should
The Westminister Dictionary of Christian Theology describes "deification" thusly:
Joseph Fitzmyer wrote:
According to Christian scholar G.L. Prestige, the ancient Christians Âtaught that the destiny of man was to become like God, and even to become deified.Â[23]
William R. Inge, Archbishop of Canterbury, wrote:
Yet, these "arrogant and shocking" doctrines were clearly held by early Christians!
This view of the early Christians' doctrines is not unique to the Latter-day Saints. Many modern Christian writers have recognized the same doctrines. If the critics do not wish to embrace these ancient doctrines, that is their privilege, but they cannot logically claim that such doctrines are not "Christian." One might fairly ask why modern Christians do not believe that which the ancient Christians insisted upon?
The previous section demonstrates that theosis has been taught by many Christians through the centuries. They pulled these beliefs from the Bible itself.
Matthew Brown compared a few descriptions between God and man in the following:
Aspect | Jesus Christ | The Saints |
---|---|---|
Crown | Rev. 14:14 | James 1:12, Rev. 2:10, Rev. 4:4,10 |
White robe | Matt. 17:2, Mark 9:3, Luke 9:29 | Rev. 6:11, Rev. 7:9-14 |
Scepter | Heb. 1:8 | Rev. 2:26-27 |
Throne | Rev. 3:21 | Rev. 3:21 |
Heir of God | Rom. 8:17 | Rom. 8:14-21, Gal. 4:1-7 |
Title of "son" | Heb. 1:5, Heb. 5:5, John 3:1, Phillipians 2:15, 2Pet. 1:4 | 1John 3:1-2, Rom. 8:14, John 1:12, 1John 1:12, Gal. 3:26 |
King and priest | John 1:49, Heb. 3:1 | Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10 |
Perfect | Matt. 5:48 | Matt. 5:48 |
One with God | John 4:11John 17:20-21, John 10:30 | John 17:21-23 |
Theosis is discussed in the following scriptures:
In regard to the Mormon doctrine, non-LDS scholar Ernst W. Benz has observed
Theosis and related at FAIR |
Theosis and related at FAIR |
Theosis and related links |
Theosis and related printed material |
Stop twisting our words to fit you senario!
You want to believe in “3 in one oil” fine I know different and was taught by the Holy Ghost not some traditioin of men!
This senarios of your is all wet!
Please stop trying to tell the LDS what they believe because you are unable to grasp!
You got your 3 in one oil I have the Godhead.
What you have don’t interest me, and if you have something good what I have should not interest you, also the Lord said, this is His business not yours to judge another.
Galatians 5:22-23 “22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law”.
I’ve told you before MHG, I won’t play in the sandbox w/ you. I have endeavored to have reasoned discussions w/ a few on this thread. I will let those who have been reading along & participating, to judge the fruits of the spirit as described above in Galatians as they may pertain to me & then invite all to judge the fruits of the spirit as they may pertain to your post.
The main theme of most of my posts is to pray to the Father in the name of the Son for answers, & by power of the Holy Ghost, those answers will come. If you feel that’s demonic, or that my questions ilicit evil spirits, sobeit. let all judge as they may.
Matt.7:20 “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them”.
Regardless of my disagreements w/ you, I harbor no ill wishes towards you, in fact as my brother, I wish you the very best. But I’m no longer disposed to play in the sandbox, even w/ my brother.
First of all, I don't think God is going to send anyone to hell for not completely understanding the Trinity. To me, anyway, it's not a big deal if someone, as some Christians no doubt do, imagine God the Father with a body and Jesus Christ, His Son, with a different physical body. The problem is when Mormon doctrine then jumps off the cliff with drastic leaps of logic, like God once being a man and men becoming gods. This is completely against the whole of the Bible, as is the concept of more than 1 God.
It's rather amusing that you state "your belief in one God..." as if that is something that Christians believe for no good reason. For every verse you can find to twist to suit your purposes of supporting LDS doctrine that there are millions of Gods, I can show you 10 that state there is ONE GOD. Period.
Wouldn't it be cool if there was a prophet on the earth as in days of old to clear up these kinds of issues? To set the record straight.
And let me guess...Joseph Smith was that "prophet", right? Yes, he really cleared up the question of the Trinity and nature of God, didn't he? I mean the Book of Mormon contains "the fulness of the gospel", right? Surely, it MUST explain how wrong the idea of the Trinity is, and that God the Father and Jesus are 2 distinct physical beings, right?
OOPS! Your Book of Mormon says NO SUCH THING! Have you even read the Book of Mormon? I don't see how you could be confused about the trinity IF you have read the Book of Mormon and IF you actually believe it contains "the fulness of the gospel".
Let's start with 2 Nephi 2:13-14
"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away. And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon."
WHO, according to the Book of Mormon created the universe?Only one God is mentioned.
2 Nephi 9:20
"O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it."
Hmmmm...according to this passage, God knows everything; He is omniscient. No god in a physical body can know everything.
Let's examine 2 Nephi 10:7
"But, behold, thus saith the Lord God: When the day cometh that they shall believe in me, that I am Christ, then have I covenanted with their fathers that they shall be restored in the flesh, upon the earth, unto the lands of their inheritance."
Here we learn that Christ is God. Eventually everyone will be restored to the flesh on this planet, not each on a planet of his own.
Go to 2 Nephi 11:6-7
"And my soul delighteth in proving unto my people that save Christ should come all men must perish. For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time."
This passage again demonstrates that Christ is God. Not "a god". Not just "one in purpose". God. Period.
Examine 2 Nephi 19:6
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder; and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
This passage is describing God the Son, yet it says that He shall be called The Everlasting Father! Here is yet another contradiction of standard Mormon "insider doctrine", because it maintains that the Son and the Father are two separate beings with human bodies. Here we learn that They are one and the same Being.
It is quite clear that the Book of Mormon supports orthodox Christianity much better than it does current Mormon doctrine!
Turn to 2 Nephi 26:12
"And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;"
Yet again, another passage that indicates that Jesus is God, and that He is eternal.
Now look at Mosiah 3:8
"And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary."
Here we learn once more that Jesus created the universe, and is the Father.
Let's examine Mosiah 15:1-5
"And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son--The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people."
While this passage is somewhat confusing and perhaps even nonsensical, it does clearly state that the Father and Son are one God. It clearly says that the Father is spirit and the Son is flesh. And please don't put out the pitiful response "well, every body has a spirit". The BoM ONLY states that the Father is a spirit and NOWHERE says he has a physical body, unless it's identifying God the Father as Jesus Christ.
For example, Alma 18:26-30
"And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit? And he said, Yea. And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in the heaven and in the earth? And he said: Yea, I believe that he created all things which are in the earth; but I do not know the heavens. And Ammon said unto him: The heavens is a place where God dwells and all his holy angels."
Nothing much I can add to that.
Consider now Moroni 8:18
"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity."
So, from the Book of Mormon we can glean its teaching on the nature of God: God existed from all eternity UNCHANGED, and will exist to all eternity, UNCHANGED. He did not grow up on some planet as a mortal man created by some other "god". GOD has always existed as GOD and always will. Period.
Let's consider 3 Nephi 11:22-27, and verse 36
"And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."
A clear statement of the Christian Trinity. The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one!
And then there's 2 Nephi 31:21
"And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen."
There it is again: the Christian Trinity, consisting of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is one God. Not three gods, not three of many millions of gods, but ONE GOD and only ONE GOD.
Feel free to study up on the LDS "Lectures of Faith" that were published in the D&C until 1921. Without vote or notice they were yanked out. Why? Because, as I pointed out on another post THEY WERE IN DIRECT CONTRADICTION OF MORMON DOCTRINE IN REGARDS TO THE NATURE OF GOD. They taught that God is SPIRT and the Jesus is FLESH, and that the Holy Ghost was the mind. Again, spare me the "well, God HAS has a spirit, so that was true" argument. It says SPIRIT, period, and NOTHING about a body. Additionally, if those scriptures didn't contradict with the doctrine later adopted by the LDS church, there would have been no reason to remove them. By their very removal the LDS Church has admitted that "there's a problem" there.
The Lord never said prophets were no longer needed nor that we would never have one to lead us again.
Funny you should say such a thing. Actually the Bible DOES say prophets are no longer needed. Simply read the first 2 verses of Hebrews. It states that BEFORE Christ, God did send prophets but that Jesus replaced that system. We now have direct access to God through Christ.
All these different Christian Churches w/ all their different & competing doctrines.
As if all "Mormons" don't have "different and competing doctrines". There have been over 100 Mormon splinter groups in the brief time since Joe Smith wrote the Book of Mormon. Smith said he would be succeeded by his son...and he was. Backed by Emma Smith, Joseph Smith's first wife, he became the head of the RLDS Church, now the Community of Christ Church. They actually follow that Book of Mormon for what it's worth. They reject plurality of wives, plurality of gods, and other LDS doctrines not found in the BoM and most often contradicted by the BoM. Then we have the FLDS groups, practicing polygamy in Utah by tens of thousands TODAY. They also believe THEY are the restored church and the SLC LDS Church is apostate.
So much for that "latter day prophet" clearing up all that "confusion". Good grief.
Obviously, I've been to the page and read it. Why would I need you to re-copy and paste it?! LOL
Why would I need you to re-copy and paste it?! LOL
Could it be you are not the only one who reads these post!
Excuse me Reno for steping in.
No god in a physical body can know everything
It will be impossible for you to under The Church or the LDS
when you keep using your template to understand!
An excellent talk on-
Jesus Christ as Father in the Book of Mormon
http://www.byub.org/sperry/real/skinner03.ram
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.