Posted on 07/29/2007 11:43:02 AM PDT by CatholicTim
and good for you for helping!..
...I can’t imagine not doing it...the looks of joy on the faces of the Elect at the Easter Vigil justifies any effort required of me tenfold...
I’m not worried about it. Often when people raise the strongest objections they are experiencing grace. It is human nature. They are afraid if Christians are telling the truth they may have to change their behavior. Change is difficult. God works in amazing ways. Consider what God did for the Apostle Paul, who persecuted Christians. Consider what God did for anti-Catholic Scott Hahn.
Even if every claim against the Church is true, I tell my non-Catholic friends not to let bad Catholics stop them from becoming Catholic.
People (including popes and bishops) often let us down, but Jesus never lets us down.
The real question is what is true? The real question is why is there anything at all? Did the universe create itself? Why are we here? Is it possible that we were created to be in communion with our creator?
Our hearts are restless til they rest in Thee. -St. Augustine
Tim, Glad to hear that you are still sticking around despite the heretical nun. Unfortunately, there are a number of Catholics so taken in by the Western idea of individualism and a self-aggrandizing society. They believe that the individual should make the decisions on doctrine, forgetting something crucial in the understanding of true Catholicism - that God's Spirit doesn't speak two different messages... Either the Church as a whole is correct, or God was NEVER leading it to begin with. Which nun would take the latter position? It is up to the nun to see this clearly, as people don't like to give up their pet concepts very easily.
Continue to be a sponsor, working with the person and their family to show what Catholics TRULY believe. Offset those false teachings without confronting the nun directly, for now. Bide your time - God will eventually put you in a situation where you will be able to spread the TRUE Gospel. I would also consider talking to your priest/pastor on the matter and see where he stands - although you should be careful. Unfortunately, as any human organization, there is politics involved, and you certainly don't want to be cast out of RCIA altogether to "get you out of the way". Your priest may also be wishy-washy on Pro-Life.
Pray and God will guide you. It takes awhile to turn around an RCIA program that has problems, but it can be done.
Regards
Thanks for the reminder!
Regards
I found a pendant of Mary in the parking lot this morning. Meduborje. Is that name a different way to spell one of the sites where they saw Mary? I’d never seen that spelling before
bookmarking.
Thank you for your kind words.
I agree with you 100%. Part of the problem with American society is that we want to define the truth. This is why Protestant Churches flourish here. If we don’t find a Church that matches our subjective interpretation of revelation, we can simply change churches or start a new one.
Protestants in the church are a different matter. Some days I wish my dear friend become an Episcopalian. She could then define her faith any way she wants plus she could become a priestess if that is her desire.
However, I really don’t want any dissodent Catholic to leave. I only want them to receive the grace that I have about the beauty of the Magisterium. There was a time I thought I was smarter than the Magisterium. I try not to judge anyone. I am confident God will give her the grace eventually.
Like most radical feminists she had a disfunctional relationship with her father. She told me she doesn’t trust the word of any man. She needs to forgive her natural father so that she can learn to relate to our spiritual father, the pope.
Good observation. Learning to forgive is a skill not easily obtained! Hopefully she will come across a trusting male figure that will wean her away from the idea that all men are untrustworthy.
Of course, there is always the idea that GOD is behind the words of the Magesterium, making the sex (or intelligence, or whatever) of the messenger a moot point...
Regards Regards
Although my wife was a cradle Catholic, I was not, but much changed nearly two decades ago,when we went to HLI to help out because of their work against abortions. There, we found they welcomed our handicapped son like few others. Their attitude, that of Fr. Paul Marx, and staff attracted us both by their humble matter-of-fact behavior.
It was their behavior, I guess. It was how they were, not what they said. Today, the successor to Fr. Marx, Fr. Euteneuer is carrying on in the same spirit, a defender of Terri Schiavo.
Deo gratias
8mm
I’m moving closer to Catholicism. Take out the bad and it’s still the first, The Rock. Peter started the Church per Jesus’ request. (the St. Pete Diocese) may be an exception but Bishop Lynch and his bad ideas won’t last forever).
And there you have it!
That's it??? Because another Catholic says it's so???
God teaches eternal security of the believer for the Christian in the Church Age...Millions of Christians see it, know it and understand it...
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.Paul sinned constantly...
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
We walk after the spirit but that ole' flesh is hard to keep down...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
There is no condemnation for believers in Christ...
Your church apparently believes and teaches that there IS condemnation in Catholics unless you partake in the Eucharist, get sprinkled with 'holy' water, visit people in prison, etc...In other word, you provide your own righteousness...
And that's fine with me...But Paul says those who provide their own righteousness will be judged on that righteousness...
I thank God for the Sacrifice of Jesus who paid the price 'once for all' so that I don't have to provide my own righteousness...If I had to count on myself, I'd never make it through the Judgment...Good luck to you all...
But to say that eternal security is heresy is heretical...
Thank you so much for this opportunity to dialog. At one time I believed pretty much what you just stated in your posting. I completely understand where you are coming from.
I don’t have time to give you a detailed explanation of what I discovered about these passages when I was looking into the Catholic Church. I will have time later tonight.
God bless you. Pray for me and I will pray for you.
Tim Cooper
No, we just think that if a person dies in a state of unrepentant grave sin, he isn't "in Christ Jesus" anymore, and that's by his own free choice.
And there are plenty of Protestants who read the Bible and agree with us on that. Lutherans and Free Will Baptists do, for starters.
Incidentally, the Eucharist no more amounts to me "providing my own righteousness" than your "taking Jesus as your personal savior" amounts to you providing your own righteousness. Jesus Christ is the power and presence in the Holy Eucharist, not me.
BTW, Iscool, if a "once saved always saved" fundamental Christian becomes a fervent, orthodox Catholic, is he still saved?
Thanks for the post.
Dr. Francis J. Beckwith, former President of the Evangelical Theological Society became convinced after prayerfully reading Hebrews that we can indeed fall back into sin and if we don’t repent we can be lost. Dr. Beckwith just joined the Catholic Church. I think there are numerous passages that talk about salvation as a process that requires perseverance.
Also you stated the Catholic position incorrectly. We are not saved by our works but by the blood of Jesus. It doesn’t look like you read my arguments relating to grace, free will and justification. We are made righteous by Jesus Christ alone, not by our own human efforts.
In addition the Church does teach that if we are abiding in Christ, if we remain in a state of grace we have the assurance of salvation. If we fall from the state of grace all we have to do is to confess our sins and we will be restored. We have the moral assurance of salvation which means that we don’t have to lose any sleep at night. I place my trust in Christ for my salvation and Christ never lets me down.
Mt. 7: 21-23 – “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’” Jesus is definite: Judgment will be based on how we live out our faith, not on ‘faith alone.’ For Jesus tells us those who do the Father’s will are saved, and he condemns ‘evildoers,’ not ‘unbelievers.’ Precisely the same point is made in Luke 13: 25-28.
Jn. 5: 29 – “’...all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.’” Judgment will depend on how we live out our faith. How could this simple fact be clearer in scripture?
Luke 10: 25-28 – Here Jesus answers the question of salvation directly. A scholar asks, “’Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ Jesus said to him, ‘What is written in the law? How do you read it?’ He said in reply, ‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.’ He replied to him, ‘You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.’” This passage is definitive. Look at the question first. It reads: ‘What must I do?’ Not, ‘What must I believe?’ And then examine Jesus’ reply. He does not affirm Luther’s principle – that we are saved by ‘faith alone.’ He says we must love – which is itself an act; indeed, it is an act that presupposes a multitude of subsequent acts – or we will not be saved. Finally, don’t miss the word, ‘inherit.’ An inheritance is a gift that is given, not a wage that is earned. Our loving acts amount to our acceptance of our inheritance, which was gained for us by the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb.
Rom. 2: 13 – “For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.” ‘Faith alone’ – simply hearing the law – is not enough to save us. Instead, we must commit ourselves to observing the law. Our actions are required – our positive response to God’s call.
Rom. 2: 5-11 – “...the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works.” Paul is clear on this. We will be judged by our commitment to our faith. Which is not the same thing as saying that our salvation comes through our own deeds or merits, for – as the Church has always taught – without Jesus there would be no possibility of redemption.
Rom. 1: 4-6 – Faith requires of us a response, an act – “obedience,” as we see in this passage: “Through him [Jesus], we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name…” Faith results in a concrete change of life. We must obey our “faith” and submit our wills to God’s. Through this phrase, “the obedience of faith,” St. Paul inextricably links faith to good works.
Rom. 6: 16 – Again, St. Paul refers to “obedience of faith.” Note that St. Paul nowhere refers to “faith alone.” Faith cannot exist in a vacuum. The truth is, there is no such thing as “faith alone,” apart from obedience, apart from good works, apart from love. Faith implies – requires – all these things. “Faith alone” is not faith at all.
Rom. 16: 26 – St. Paul’s “obedience of faith” refers to a faith response – a life-changing commitment we make to the God who has saved us: “…the commandment of the eternal God… has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith…”
Lk. 8: 13 – “...they believe only for a time and fall away...” One of the main points of the parable of the sower and the seed is that salvation is not assured. When we opt for evil – placing our will above God’s – we forfeit the salvation Jesus gained for us.
Phil. 2: 12 – “...work out your salvation in fear and trembling...” St. Paul is again clear: Salvation is not assured. For we may at any time succumb to temptation and reject God and his plan for our life.
1 Jn. 3: 7 – “Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous...” The person who acts, not the person who simply believes. Our active participation in – and commitment to – our faith is absolutely necessary.
James 1: 4 – “And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” We must persevere in the struggle for salvation while we are on earth. If we were totally assured of salvation in this life, this verse about ‘perseverance’ would be meaningless
Mt. 5: 19-20 – “’Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches those commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’” Actions seem to be important to Jesus. He expects us to keep the commandments, even though he also knows his death will atone for all sins.
Mt. 6: 1-4 – “’…take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.” If doing good works is of no consequence, then why does Jesus tell us that the Father will repay us when we do them?
Heb. 10: 26-29 – “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God...?” We will be punished for our sins more severely than those who sinned before Jesus’ coming.
2 Pet. 1: 5-11 – “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm.” Salvation is not guaranteed; we must do our best to preserve it. Also, St. Peter is indicating that the firmness of our election depends on us – and our response to the call of God – and not on the Lord’s sacrifice alone. Thus we see that faith is itself, in the way most Protestants use the term, a ‘work.’
1 Cor. 4: 4-5 – “...I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time...” Salvation is not assured, even for St. Paul.
1 Cor. 9: 27 – “...for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” St. Paul is not absolutely assured of his own salvation. How could we possibly presume to be assured of ours?
1 Cor. 10: 12 – “...whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.” St. Paul is clear: Our salvation is not assured. It hangs in the balance and how we conduct our lives – the commitment we make to our faith, which we have received through the grace of God – will determine our ultimate disposition.
Gal. 5: 6 – St. Paul makes it clear that what counts is: “...faith working through love.” Hardly ‘faith alone.’
2 Tim. 2: 11-12 – “If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him.” Salvation is not based on ‘faith alone.’ Free gift that it is, faith must nonetheless lead to a life-changing commitment, which requires perseverance, as St. Paul observes. The conditional, ‘if,’ ought not be ignored here.
Rom. 3: 25 – Scripture gives us no indication that our sins are forgiven prior to our committing them: “...because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed...” ‘Previously committed’, not ‘committed in the future’ or ‘committed for all time.’
1 Jn. 3: 10 – “In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.” Again it would seem that ‘love alone’ is a more apt description of what is required for salvation than ‘faith alone.’ We are revealed as ‘children of the devil’ not by a lack of faith, but by a lack of righteous and loving actions.
2 Pet. 2: 20-21 – “For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world... again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.” So we see that those who were ‘once saved’ are not in fact ‘always saved.’
1 Cor. 4: 4-5 – “...do not make any judgment before the appointed time...” St. Paul is telling us clearly that salvation is not eternally assured.
Rom. 11: 22 – “...provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Salvation is not assured until judgment. This is true even for those who are baptized, for the community St. Paul is writing to here is made up of believers.
Rom. 5: 2 – “...we boast in hope of the glory of God.” If salvation were assured, we would have more than just “hope.” We would have certainty.
Rom. 8: 24-25 – “...if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.” Our salvation is not totally assured. We must endure.
Lk. 13: 6-9 – “’...it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’” We must bear fruit in this life – i.e., we must work to further God’s plan – or we risk being cut down. What will insure that we bear fruit? Not ‘faith alone,’ but a life-changing commitment to our faith.
Heb. 6: 4-8 – “For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” Salvation is not always assured.
Gal. 6: 6-10 – “...let us not grow tired of doing good...” Our actions do matter, which is why St. Paul is constantly exhorting his followers to do good.
Mk. 14: 38 – “Watch and pray that you not enter into temptation.” Salvation is not assured until judgment, because at any time we may “enter into temptation” and fall into sin.
Mt. 10: 22 – “...whoever endures to the end will be saved.” Our salvation is not fully and totally assured. Our endurance – our perseverance – is required.
Rom. 6: 16 – Justification is a process we continually anticipate: “...you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness.” Justification is not something accomplished once, in the past. We see by the tense of the verb, ‘leads,’ that it is ongoing, continuing through our lives.
Mt. 12: 36 – Not only our actions, but our words will determine our judgment: “I tell you, on the day of judgment, people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Gal. 5: 4-5 – Justification is a process we await: “...we await the hope of righteousness.” Justification is not a once-for-all occurrence. It happened in the past. It is happening now. It will happen in the future – all provided we respond positively to the free gift of God’s call.
Gal. 2: 17 – Justification is not permanent, not assured: “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!” Some who may consider themselves to be ‘saved’ will in fact be ‘found to be sinners.’
Rom. 3: 24 – St. Paul refers to justification in the present tense: “They are justified freely by his grace...” So justification is clearly an ongoing process that takes place in the past, present and future. It is not a ‘once-saved-always-saved’ proposition that so many preach.
1 Cor. 1: 18 – Again, justification is said to be ongoing; Paul refers to it in the present tense: “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
Jn. 3: 19-21 – “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.” Evil actions separate us from the light.
Mk. 14: 38 – “Watch and pray that you not enter into temptation.” Salvation is not assured until judgment, because at any time we may “enter into temptation” and fall into sin.
Mt. 10: 22 – “...whoever endures to the end will be saved.” Our salvation is not fully and totally assured. Our endurance – our perseverance – is required.
Rom. 6: 16 – Justification is a process we continually anticipate: “...you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness.” Justification is not something accomplished once, in the past. We see by the tense of the verb, ‘leads,’ that it is ongoing, continuing through our lives.
Mt. 12: 36 – Not only our actions, but our words will determine our judgment: “I tell you, on the day of judgment, people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Gal. 5: 4-5 – Justification is a process we await: “...we await the hope of righteousness.” Justification is not a once-for-all occurrence. It happened in the past. It is happening now. It will happen in the future – all provided we respond positively to the free gift of God’s call.
Gal. 2: 17 – Justification is not permanent, not assured: “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!” Some who may consider themselves to be ‘saved’ will in fact be ‘found to be sinners.’
Rom. 3: 24 – St. Paul refers to justification in the present tense: “They are justified freely by his grace...” So justification is clearly an ongoing process that takes place in the past, present and future. It is not a ‘once-saved-always-saved’ proposition that so many preach.
1 Cor. 1: 18 – Again, justification is said to be ongoing; Paul refers to it in the present tense: “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
Jn. 3: 19-21 – “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.” Evil actions separate us from the light.
I will respond to the verses you stated later tonight.
God bless!
Saint John Chrysostom [347-407 AD] from Homily 13 on Romans gives us a good explanation why Romans 7-8 does not give evidence to “once saved always saved”.
“Then as the fact that many fall into sin even after baptism presented a difficulty antepipten, he consequently hastened to meet it, and says not merely “to them that are in Christ Jesus,” but adds, “who walk not after the flesh;” so showing that all afterward comes of our listlessness. For now we have the power of walking not after the flesh, but then it was a difficult task. Then he gives another proof of it by the sequel, in the words…”
The key word in this passage is “WALK”! Walking means a process of continuing in God’s grace, not a one-time, once-and-for-all-time conversion experience.
Even virulent anti-Catholic, David W. Bercot, wrote a book “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up” and discusses at length the universality of teachings of the early church fathers against the notion of “once saved always saved”. Here is a portion of his book:
“Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience were necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For Example, Irenaaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of the those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him… Therefore we should not be puffed up… But we should beware lest somehow, after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out of His kingdom”
Tertullian wrote, “some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift. They turn His liberality into slavery… For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?”
Cyprian told his fellow believers, “it is written, “He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved. Matt 10:22. So whoever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent.”
I will get some more quotes for you tomorrow. Unfortunately for yoursake the idea that all future sins are forgiven didn’t come around until Calvin. This notion is a novel, corrupt manmade tradition started by Calvin.
Please provide for me a verse that talks about “future sins”. You can’t do it because such a verse doesn’t exist.
Keep praying for me and I will keep praying for you.
God Bless,
Tim Cooper
.
Bookmarking for future read. Bless you for aggregating all these posts.
The following bears repeating, especially considering the fact that St. Ignatius was instructed by the apostle John.
“They [heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again... It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public… See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD]
Epistle to the Smyraeans
I saw that program. It was a very sad story, but it reminded me of Luke 51-52. Aside from martyrdom, I can't imagine a greater sacrifice.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.