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12 Reasons I Joined the Catholic Church
Triumph of Truth ^ | 7/29/2007 | Tim Cooper

Posted on 07/29/2007 11:43:02 AM PDT by CatholicTim

I have been a Catholic now for 4 years. I was raised in the Nazarene Church. I wouldn’t say our family was overtly anti-Catholic but I always heard comparisons between our Church and the Catholic Church and how Catholics were wrong. My perception is that most people in the Nazarene Church would say there might be some Catholics who are also Christians. (Of course, if they were saved it would be in spite of their Catholic religion not because of it.) We were taught that the “Catholic religion” added a bunch of extra manmade teachings and traditions (like “worshipping Mary” or “we are saved by our works”) that clearly contradicted scripture. Later I found out that most of these perceptions were false. It would take 22 years for me to discover I was given a false picture of the Church.

My long discovery started when I met my future wife in college. Before I married her I went to church with her and quickly realized that Catholics did not worship Mary. While their service (the mass) was alien, I didn’t feel that uncomfortable going to church with her. In college, I had already moved away from the fundamentalist Nazarene faith and adopted more of a generic “mere” Christianity approach to faith (i.e. CS Lewis). Regardless, when I got married, I told her I would never become Catholic and my wife told me she would never become Protestant. We just agreed to disagree. (My wife proved to me that practicing Catholics were indeed Christians. Prior to meeting her most Catholics I knew didn’t really live their faith.) We considered each other to be Christians and that was good enough. I agreed to get married in the Catholic Church. After we were married we went to the Catholic Church most of the time. In fact, I went with my wife for 22 years and never had any motivation to become Catholic. My wife never pushed me to join and from my perception most of the priests could care less whether I joined or not. My wife was trying to be respectful of my faith and we found it easier not to discuss divisive issues. Now that I have joined the Church I am sorry she didn’t encourage me at least a little bit.

When my daughter received her first communion in 1999, I started to think about investigating the church. Protestants cannot receive communion and thought it would be good to receive communion as a family. Unfortunately my schedule made it impossible to research the church at that time. Later I heard Protestant Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answer Man) on the radio say that the Catholic Church was a true church but a church with “issues”. I decided that I would investigate what the Church taught and if the Church was a “true church” I would consider joining. I still held the Protestant notion that we can “customize” our faith to meet our own subjective standards. I thought I could become a Catholic and pick and choose which doctrines I wanted to embrace.

I enrolled in the RCIA program at our church in the fall of 2002. This is the program for non-Catholics to learn the faith and eventually join if they liked what they heard. Unfortunately, the nun that ran our program was worthless as far as helping me with my issues. She was a radical feminist, yet a sweet lady but couldn’t defend anything from scripture. Also, her theologically liberal orientation rubbed me the wrong way. She would say things like Catholics don’t believe all of the events in the Gospels really happened. I wanted to get scriptural support for Catholic teachings on Mary and the Pope and instead I received a continuous stream of negative views on the papacy and how the church was unfair to women. Like many Catholics I have since met from her generation (she is in her 60s), she is actually a “Protestant” inside the Church. Today I tell people to read the Catechism and take what they hear in RCIA programs with a grain of salt. I started RCIA in September and by Christmas I was ready to quit.

Fortunately my wife gave me a book, ”Rome Sweet Home”, by Scott Hahn for Christmas. He was a Protestant minister that quit his ministry to become Catholic. It was from his research of doctrines, history and scripture he decided Catholics got it right. His autobiography, written with his wife, was easy to read and captivating. I read it in 2 days. He pointed out the two pillars of the Protestant reformation were “Sola Scriptura” (scripture alone) and “Sola Fide” (faith alone). It was those two primary theological points that caused Protestants to split from the Catholic Church. To my amazement Hahn proved that neither “pillar” had scriptural support. After I read it I was convinced Catholics got it right too. I bit my tongue in my class and joined the Church in Easter 2003. I have never regretted my decision. I am closer to Jesus than ever before. This letter is a summary of twelve reasons I joined the church.

Before I talk about the differences between Catholics and Protestants and why I joined the Church, I would like to cover what we have in common. To my pleasant surprise, I found that we have more in common than what I ever imagined. First, both Catholics and Protestants share the view that we are saved by grace alone. We do not earn our salvation. We are saved only because Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Second, both Catholics and Protestants teach that the Bible is inspired and inerrant. The Church teaches the Bible should be read as the authors intended it to be read. The Church teaches that the New Testament is historically accurate and that the miracles in the Bible really happened. Third, Catholics teach that all doctrines should never contradict scripture and public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. (The Catholic Church says that it does not have any authority to create new revelation or even invent novel doctrines.) To my shock, I found that all Catholic beliefs have either implicit or explicit support in scripture. Both Catholics and Protestants believe in the power of prayer. Both believe Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Both Catholics and Protestants believe we will find true peace when we surrender our lives to Jesus.

Once I examined each unique Catholic doctrine, I discovered Catholics have the best interpretation of scripture among every church/denomination I have researched. However, my reasons for converting weren’t limited to scripture, I also considered logic and history. I have identified these 12 reasons:

1. HISTORY. (2 Thess. 2:15) To be a Protestant you have to believe that the Apostles did a miserable job of teaching the faith to their own followers and successors (bishops). I found no evidence in the first 300 years of the church to support any distinctively Protestant (whether Nazarene, Baptist, Calvinist, Anabaptist, Non-Denominational or Lutheran etc) teachings. Instead, I found a very Catholic understanding of Ordination, Tradition, Authority, Communion of Saints, Liturgy (including the Sacrifice of the Mass), Baptism and Eucharist etc (and all of other distinctively Catholic teachings). Certainly they did not teach Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide! In fact I found plenty of evidence contradicting Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide! Instead, I found overwhelming evidence supporting apostolic succession, with a visible Church, with a visible leadership in the bishop of Rome. You were either belonged to a heretical sect or you belonged to the one true Catholic Church. For the first 1000 years of Christianity there was only ONE CHURCH, the Catholic Church. In the early centuries of the Church, those outside the Catholic Church were Gnostics or Montanists or other goofy sects that Protestants wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole today. I have collected about 30 pages of quotes showing how Catholic the early church truly was. A good book to read about the early church is by former Protestant, Rod Bennett called “Four Witnesses”. Let me share with you just 2 quotes:

“They [heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again... It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public… See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] Epistle to the Smyraeans

“…whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, [heretics] assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority -- that is, the faithful everywhere -- inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved…” Irenaeus of Lyons [120-180 AD] Adversus Haereses

Irenaeus goes on and lists every pope from Peter to his own time. Can we rely on these early bishops of the Church? While their writings aren’t inspired, they are useful. Bishops Polycarp and Ignatius of Antioch were friends and pen-pals, both martyred by Roman authorities and both learned their faith directly at the feet of the Apostle John. Irenaeus of Lyons learned his faith at the feet of Polycarp. Bishop Clement of Rome learned his faith directly from the apostles and was baptized by Peter. We have over 400 writings from dozens of bishops, historians and other defenders of the faith that have survived from the early centuries of the Church. The Protestant notion of a remnant of “true believers” outside the Catholic Church simply has no basis in fact. The Protestant notion that Constantine corrupted the Church is also false since the Church’s principle teachings were already present long before Constantine. Does it make sense to believe that the Church fell off the rails immediately? Didn’t Jesus say that the gates of hell (Matt. 16:18) would not prevail against His Church? Didn’t Jesus say that the Holy Spirit would lead His Church into truth (John 16:13)? It was hard to admit but at one point I had to honestly agree to the claim that the Catholic Church is the visible Church Jesus founded.

2. UNITY. (John 17:20-21 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.”) If the Bible alone is our sole authority that would imply the truths in the Bible are self-evident. Let me give you two examples that prove this principle is false. United Pentecostals, Lutherans and Church of Christ teach Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone is our sole authority). These denominations all proclaim that the Bible teaches we are “born again” in our water baptism. Yet Baptists, Non-denominationals and most other Protestants say that teaching is false and contradicts scripture! Calvinists teach we cannot lose our salvation yet Methodists/Wesleyans, Anabaptists and Church of Christ contend this teaching is contradicted in scripture! Lutherans say the Eucharist really is the body of Christ, however, most evangelicals say it is only a symbol. I can give you pages and pages of doctrines that Protestant Churches hold to but contradict each other. Truth cannot contradict truth. If the truths of the Bible are self-evident why are there thousands of Protestant denominations that contradict each other?

It is clear from prayer of Jesus in John 17 that he desired all of his followers to be one. The importance of this unity is stressed throughout the New Testament (Philip 2:2, Titus 3:9-10 among others). How is Christian unity possible without a single, binding teaching office? How is Christian unity possible if our authority is based only on (subjective) personal interpretation of scripture? You can prove anything you want with the Bible. Scott Hahn made me realize as a Protestant I was the final arbiter of what is true. My idea of truth was based only on my personal interpretation of scripture. In practice the Protestant enterprise is built on subjective truth through subjective interpretation of scripture, not objective truth. I love objective truth. Unity is not possible without objective truth to bind all believers. Unity can never be achieved without a binding teaching authority given to the apostles and their successors, the bishops in unity with the bishop of Rome, the seat of Peter (Matthew 16:19).

3. EUCHARIST. (Matt 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?) If Jesus words in John 6 are only to be taken symbolically and not literally, why didn’t Jesus clarify his “difficult” teaching to the followers who abandoned him (John 6:66-67)?

Only Lutherans and Anglicans recognize the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. However, even they will tell you that it is only contingent on the (subjective) beliefs of those receiving. On the other hand, Catholics and Orthodox believe that through the Holy Spirit the bread and wine objectively becomes the body and blood of Christ. All Christians believed the Eucharist was REALLY the body of Jesus for 1200 years. Is it logical that God allowed a major heresy in His Church for all that time? There are more Eastern Orthodox in the world today than all Protestants combined. Even today Christian sects who believe the Eucharist is only a symbol are only a small minority of all Christians. It was reading the entire chapter of John 6 that I realized I was wrong about the Eucharist. Over and over again I discovered that Catholics took the Bible more literally than I did. The Eucharist is just one example.

It isn’t cannibalism because His flesh is in the form of bread and wine. It is a deep mystery and I can’t explain it but the Eucharist has fundamentally changed how I worship God. I have received Holy Communion from many Protestant churches in my lifetime and I can say the difference is night and day between Protestant and Catholic communion. Protestants are great at preaching from the Bible and I applaud them for that. However, while Protestants have been studying the menu, Catholics have been getting the meal.

4 AUTHORITY. (Matt 16:19) Why did Jesus give Peter the “keys”? What does binding and loosing mean? Why did Paul say the church was the “pillar and foundation of truth?” (1 Tim 3:15) In John 1:42 and Matt 16:18, Jesus gives Simon a new name. Jesus tells his disciple "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church." Jesus continues in Matt 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” I studied the Greek and found out that the “you” in this passage is singular. Jesus was talking to Peter alone when he gives him this authority. Check out the tracks on the papacy from www.catholic.com. Here are some extracts:

Jesus quotes almost verbatim from this passage in Isaiah, and so it is clear what he has in mind. He is raising Peter up as a father figure to the household of faith (Is. 22:21), to lead them and guide the flock (John 21:15-17).

The “keys” indicate “Apostolic Succession”. The “keys” clearly indicate an “office” was established, not just an authority that was to end when Peter died. This authority of the prime minister (Is. 22:21), under the king was passed on from one man to another down through the ages by the giving of the keys, which were worn on the shoulder as a sign of authority. Likewise, the authority of Peter has been passed down for 2000 years by means of the papacy. All subsequent bishops were replaced to maintain the offices established by the apostles and their apostles and so forth. Peter headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26) demonstrating the first example of apostolic succession in the Bible.

To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, "[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

When I started studying the role of Peter in the early church I was stunned by the leadership presented in the New Testament. After Jesus, Peter is mentioned more than any other person in the Bible. Again from catholic.com -- Whenever the apostles were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Luke 9:32, Acts 1:13). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48). We know from historical documents outside the Bible that Peter ended his ministry in Rome and that Linus was the first bishop in Rome to succeed Peter. Since Linus we have a very well documented line of bishops to this day. Linus was a real person. He was succeeded by Cletus and then Clement. I mentioned Clement earlier. We have a letter written by Clement from the first century to the Corinthians that has survived to today. In it he demonstrates his unique authority, especially given the fact that Corinth was not in his local jurisdiction. The best book to read on this issue is Steve Ray’s (another former Protestant evangelical now Catholic) “Upon This Rock”.

5. CANON. (2 Tim 3:16) Catholics and (most) Protestants teach Bible is the inspired and inerrant word of God. But where did the Bible come from? Who decided which books belonged in the New Testament Canon? If we honestly research this question we will discover that it was through (Catholic) Apostolic Tradition and the Catholic Magisterium (both denied by Protestants) that the determination was made which books were inspired and belonged in the New Testament canon. It was only because of the hard work of Catholic monks that the New Testament scriptures survived to today. Prior to the printing press there were only a relatively small number of bibles and even then most Christians were illiterate. Why would God establish the Bible as our sole authority when it was impractical means of communication to most individual believers for 1500 years? As a Protestant I realized that it was only because of the Catholic Church that we have the Bible.

There is also the question of why Protestants threw out 7 books of the Old Testament? Christians were quoting from those books from the beginning. It was Luther that first threw them out. Luther didn’t like Maccabees because it mentioned praying for the dead (implying purgatory). Even the original King James had the books included.

Prior to the printing press there were only a relatively small number of bibles and even then most Christians were illiterate. Why would God establish the Bible as our sole authority when it was impractical means of communication to most individual believers for 1500 years? As a Protestant I realized that it was only because of the authority of the Catholic Church that we even know the Bible is inerrant and inspired. The best book on this is by Mark Shae (another former Protestant evangelical who became Catholic) “By What Authority”.

6. GRACE. (Rom 5:5) The Catholic Church teaches we are saved by grace alone. Both Protestants and Catholics believe grace is a free, unmerited gift from God. However, Protestants generally view grace as only God’s favor to us sinners. Catholics have a much deeper understanding of grace. Grace is God’s active change agent in our lives. It is through God’s grace that we are moved to have faith in Christ and it is through God’s grace that our lives are transformed in Christ (making us sanctified/justified).

Catholics call this “infused” grace. This matches the description of grace in the New Testament beautifully. Infused grace is how God "pours" grace by the power of the Holy Spirit into our souls or, to put it another way, "fills" us with His grace. Some good passages to read relating to infused grace include Psalm 45:2, Isaiah 32:14-15, Acts 2:17-18, Acts 6:8, Acts 4:31, Acts 10:45, Acts 11:23-24, Romans 5:5, Eph 5:18 and Titus 3:5-7) Catholics call sanctifying grace.

This is the source of inner conversion to Christ. It is by the Holy Spirit that we can become a “new man”. The Holy Spirit is the source of our transformation in Christ. Through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ infuses us with His righteousness. This righteousness is not earned. It is all grace. Many Protestants acknowledge the process of sanctification yet would deny the notion of “infused” righteousness. They would only accept “imputed” righteousness. I have found the notion of “imputed” righteousness rather limiting. In my mind it is like putting God in a box saying he lacks the power to transform us from the inside out.

Likewise Protestants talk about “ordinances”, while Catholics talk about “sacraments”. There is a huge difference. Ordinances are things we do for God. Sacraments are things God does for us. Baptism, Confession, Communion etc. are all things that God uses to transmit His free gift of grace to us.

7. FREE WILL. (2 Tim 2:11) Protestants are all over the map on this issue. Catholics say that God didn’t create robots. God wants us to freely choose His gift of salvation. However, our choice isn’t just a single decision (to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior). Our free will applies to cooperating with God’s grace every day of our lives. Every day we say “yes” to Jesus and His will for our lives. We say “yes” or “no” to Jesus in every decision we make. Every time we act in faith we cooperate with God’s free gift of grace. Every time we say “yes” we are aligning our will with God’s will, meriting His grace, increasing our sanctification. When Catholics use the word “merit” it does not mean “earn”. It means receiving God’s reward (a free gift) for our faithfulness.

8. JUSTIFICATION. (James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”) Catholics do not separate “having faith” from “acting in faith”. You cannot have one without the other. The Catholic notion of being justified by “faith working through love” (Gal. 5:6) rather than being justified by “faith alone” (sola fide) best harmonizes all of the seemingly contradictory passages on justification in scripture. In every place that Paul disparages “good works” in his epistles, he is referring to “circumcision” and obedience to the Mosaic Law that no longer apply with the new Covenant, not the “good works” associated with Christian faithfulness and charity. Also, since our “good works” are only possible by the grace of God, Catholics do not believe our justification is through “human” works but by God’s grace working through us (grace alone). Catholics and Protestants can agree that good works are the natural fruits of our faith (formed in charity). However, Catholics would say that these “fruits” are necessary, not optional. Catholics do not separate justification from sanctification as most Protestants do. Likewise, acts of penance contribute to our sanctification. Penance is a form of sacrifice and sacrifice is a measure of love. There are references to the importance of penance (i.e. fasting) all through scripture. Purgatory is the process of refinement/purification (1 Cor 3:15) that completes our sanctification to make us holy (Heb 12:14) so we can enter into heaven. Former 5 Point Calvinist, now Catholic apologist, Jimmy Akin has written the best book on justification called “The Salvation Controversy”. All Catholics and Protestants should read this book. He covers all of the controversial issues including the temporal consequences of sin, penance, indulgences, purgatory etc. by only referencing scripture.

9. MERCY. (1 Tim 2:4) Many Protestants believe we will be sent to Hell for simply being wrong. Catholics teach that only those who knowingly reject God’s grace (i.e. salvation through faith in Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins) will be damned. However, we all receive grace in different means and measures. Catholics teach will be judged on the state of our hearts and how we have responded to the graces we have received, not on whether we got some “doctrine” (i.e. “sola fide”) right or wrong. Ironically, Protestants are wrong about “sola fide” any way. It is clearly contradicted in scripture (see #8). Despite the fact that Protestants are wrong about a number of doctrines, Catholics expect to see them in heaven because they are following Jesus the best way they know how. Even non-Christians might be saved if they are responding to the graces they’ve received the best way they know. We call this “invincible ignorance”. Still, the easiest way to heaven is through the Church Jesus founded and the graces available only in that Church.

10. COMMUNITY. (Heb 12:1) Many Protestants limit their faith “community” to their local circle of Christians. (Some Protestants don’t even belong to a community, they have a “me and Jesus” mentality.) Catholics have a much deeper meaning of community than Protestants. Community includes those in heaven. Death does not separate those belonging to the one body of Christ. The body of Christ is one. Hebrews 12:1 says “A great cloud of witnesses surrounds us.” Rev. 5:8 talks about the prayers of the saints in heaven offering the prayers of saints on earth as incense being lifted up to God. Intercessory prayers of the saints are powerful and I am grateful to have the saints praying for me. We don’t “pray to” the saints (like Mary) as deities but rather “ask” the saints to pray with us and for us.

Mary, the greatest saint was made holy to be the ark of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ. The Church teaches Mary is a human being (not divine) but made full of grace (Luke 1:28) in order to bear God incarnate in her womb. Eastern Orthodox and Catholics are the only churches that have truly embraced Luke 1:48 where Mary, inspired by the Holy Spirit, proclaims “all generations will call me blessed”. There is no person closer to Jesus than His mother. Her prayers are powerful. I ask Mary to pray for me and my loved ones every day. The Rosary is not a prayer of vain repetitions but rather a meditation on the mysteries of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus through His mother’s eyes. The Rosary is not Mary-centered but Christ-centered. Mary’s soul glorifies the Lord. Mary always points us to her son, Jesus Christ. It was Mary’s fiat (her “YES” to God) that brought Jesus (our one mediator) into the world. Once you understand Mary’s role identified in scripture as Ark of the New Covenant, the New Eve and our Queen Mother the Church’s teachings on the unique graces she received from God make complete sense. Scott Hahn’s book on Mary, Hail Holy Queen helped me to see how the Catholic’s view of Mary is rooted in scripture.

11. PRO-LIFE. (Psalm 139:13) The depth of Catholic teaching on “life” is amazing. I was clueless what it meant to be “pro-life”, though I considered myself to be “pro-life” while I was still a Protestant. Because a human soul lives forever, one human soul means more to God than all other creation. God uses our cooperation to create new human life. The Church has very deep teachings on the relationship between men, women, marriage and children. It is too deep and profound to discuss here. I would read Humane Vitae, Casti Cannubi and Theology of the Body to get a complete understanding. The Catholic view of the sanctity of life is the most powerful indicator that the Church has been protected by the Holy Spirit in it’s teachings while the teachings of all other faith communities have been corrupted by the popular culture. Not just in the area of life, most Protestant and Orthodox Churches no longer teach the permanence of marriage either… another indication that the Catholic Church has been protected from teaching heresy.

12. CONFESSION. (John 20:23) What an amazing sacrament! First, the Church gives us the proper interpretation of scripture so we can objectively know what is sin! (Protestants cannot agree on what constitutes a sin is in the first place.) Second, when we “hear” the words of absolution we can know for certain that our sins are forgiven. Many Protestants have the unscriptural notion that when we accept Jesus as our savior, all future sins are forgiven. There are many of passages in scripture that contradict this heresy. Confession provides amazing spiritual healing. Third, regular confession means continuous introspection and evaluation. Continuous examination of conscience has made a difference in my life. There is a practical issue of not wanting to confess the same sins repeatedly. My confessor is the best accountability partner I have. The humility it takes to publicly confess my sins is exactly the kind of humility that I know God expects from me. I have seen my life change though this sacrament. The proof is in the pudding. It works. Every Catholic I have talked to that left the Church did not properly embrace this gift. They either refused to properly form their consciences or they refused to regularly examine their consciences. Either way the sanctification made possible through confession only works if you go regularly (at least once a month) and properly form and examine your conscience. To steal a line from GK Chesterton, confession has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

I could add one more reason… JOY. There is true joy when you discover the truths of the Catholic Church. There is true joy in receiving the sacraments (especially the Eucharist). There is true joy when you realize you are home where you belong. My experience has been that a lot of Catholics don’t know what they have and a lot of Protestants don’t know what they are missing. For further reading check out David Currie's "Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic".


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; conversion; protestant; thejourneyhome
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To: maryz

and good for you for helping!..

...I can’t imagine not doing it...the looks of joy on the faces of the Elect at the Easter Vigil justifies any effort required of me tenfold...


61 posted on 07/30/2007 8:44:53 AM PDT by IrishBrigade
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To: IrishBrigade

I’m not worried about it. Often when people raise the strongest objections they are experiencing grace. It is human nature. They are afraid if Christians are telling the truth they may have to change their behavior. Change is difficult. God works in amazing ways. Consider what God did for the Apostle Paul, who persecuted Christians. Consider what God did for anti-Catholic Scott Hahn.

Even if every claim against the Church is true, I tell my non-Catholic friends not to let bad Catholics stop them from becoming Catholic.

People (including popes and bishops) often let us down, but Jesus never lets us down.

The real question is what is true? The real question is why is there anything at all? Did the universe create itself? Why are we here? Is it possible that we were created to be in communion with our creator?

Our hearts are restless til they rest in Thee. -St. Augustine


62 posted on 07/30/2007 9:07:30 AM PDT by CatholicTim
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To: CatholicTim
I have been a sponsor. I asked to join the RCIA team but our Pro-Choice (yes—i’m talking about abortion) nun that runs the program doesn’t want orthodox Catholics on her team.

Tim, Glad to hear that you are still sticking around despite the heretical nun. Unfortunately, there are a number of Catholics so taken in by the Western idea of individualism and a self-aggrandizing society. They believe that the individual should make the decisions on doctrine, forgetting something crucial in the understanding of true Catholicism - that God's Spirit doesn't speak two different messages... Either the Church as a whole is correct, or God was NEVER leading it to begin with. Which nun would take the latter position? It is up to the nun to see this clearly, as people don't like to give up their pet concepts very easily.

Continue to be a sponsor, working with the person and their family to show what Catholics TRULY believe. Offset those false teachings without confronting the nun directly, for now. Bide your time - God will eventually put you in a situation where you will be able to spread the TRUE Gospel. I would also consider talking to your priest/pastor on the matter and see where he stands - although you should be careful. Unfortunately, as any human organization, there is politics involved, and you certainly don't want to be cast out of RCIA altogether to "get you out of the way". Your priest may also be wishy-washy on Pro-Life.

Pray and God will guide you. It takes awhile to turn around an RCIA program that has problems, but it can be done.

Regards

63 posted on 07/30/2007 9:15:25 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: IrishBrigade
...I can’t imagine not doing it...the looks of joy on the faces of the Elect at the Easter Vigil justifies any effort required of me tenfold...

Thanks for the reminder!

Regards

64 posted on 07/30/2007 9:19:05 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: Salvation; 8mmMauser

I found a pendant of Mary in the parking lot this morning. Meduborje. Is that name a different way to spell one of the sites where they saw Mary? I’d never seen that spelling before


65 posted on 07/30/2007 9:40:46 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Terri's List - 8mmmauser & TEAM DUNCAN HUNTER/MIKE HUCKABEE in 2008)
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To: CatholicTim

bookmarking.


66 posted on 07/30/2007 9:41:47 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Terri's List - 8mmmauser & TEAM DUNCAN HUNTER/MIKE HUCKABEE in 2008)
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To: jo kus

Thank you for your kind words.

I agree with you 100%. Part of the problem with American society is that we want to define the truth. This is why Protestant Churches flourish here. If we don’t find a Church that matches our subjective interpretation of revelation, we can simply change churches or start a new one.

Protestants in the church are a different matter. Some days I wish my dear friend become an Episcopalian. She could then define her faith any way she wants plus she could become a priestess if that is her desire.

However, I really don’t want any dissodent Catholic to leave. I only want them to receive the grace that I have about the beauty of the Magisterium. There was a time I thought I was smarter than the Magisterium. I try not to judge anyone. I am confident God will give her the grace eventually.

Like most radical feminists she had a disfunctional relationship with her father. She told me she doesn’t trust the word of any man. She needs to forgive her natural father so that she can learn to relate to our spiritual father, the pope.


67 posted on 07/30/2007 9:43:08 AM PDT by CatholicTim
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To: CatholicTim
Like most radical feminists she had a disfunctional relationship with her father. She told me she doesn’t trust the word of any man. She needs to forgive her natural father so that she can learn to relate to our spiritual father, the pope.

Good observation. Learning to forgive is a skill not easily obtained! Hopefully she will come across a trusting male figure that will wean her away from the idea that all men are untrustworthy.

Of course, there is always the idea that GOD is behind the words of the Magesterium, making the sex (or intelligence, or whatever) of the messenger a moot point...

Regards Regards

68 posted on 07/30/2007 10:19:56 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: floriduh voter; Salvation; CatholicTim

Although my wife was a cradle Catholic, I was not, but much changed nearly two decades ago,when we went to HLI to help out because of their work against abortions. There, we found they welcomed our handicapped son like few others. Their attitude, that of Fr. Paul Marx, and staff attracted us both by their humble matter-of-fact behavior.

It was their behavior, I guess. It was how they were, not what they said. Today, the successor to Fr. Marx, Fr. Euteneuer is carrying on in the same spirit, a defender of Terri Schiavo.

Deo gratias

8mm


69 posted on 07/30/2007 10:20:16 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: 8mmMauser

I’m moving closer to Catholicism. Take out the bad and it’s still the first, The Rock. Peter started the Church per Jesus’ request. (the St. Pete Diocese) may be an exception but Bishop Lynch and his bad ideas won’t last forever).


70 posted on 07/30/2007 11:16:00 AM PDT by floriduh voter (Terri's List - 8mmmauser & TEAM DUNCAN HUNTER/MIKE HUCKABEE in 2008)
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To: NYer
Many Protestants have the unscriptural notion that when we accept Jesus as our savior, all future sins are forgiven. There are many of passages in scripture that contradict this heresy.

And there you have it!

That's it??? Because another Catholic says it's so???

God teaches eternal security of the believer for the Christian in the Church Age...Millions of Christians see it, know it and understand it...

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.Paul sinned constantly...

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

We walk after the spirit but that ole' flesh is hard to keep down...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

There is no condemnation for believers in Christ...

Your church apparently believes and teaches that there IS condemnation in Catholics unless you partake in the Eucharist, get sprinkled with 'holy' water, visit people in prison, etc...In other word, you provide your own righteousness...

And that's fine with me...But Paul says those who provide their own righteousness will be judged on that righteousness...

I thank God for the Sacrifice of Jesus who paid the price 'once for all' so that I don't have to provide my own righteousness...If I had to count on myself, I'd never make it through the Judgment...Good luck to you all...

But to say that eternal security is heresy is heretical...

71 posted on 07/30/2007 12:11:45 PM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Iscool

Thank you so much for this opportunity to dialog. At one time I believed pretty much what you just stated in your posting. I completely understand where you are coming from.

I don’t have time to give you a detailed explanation of what I discovered about these passages when I was looking into the Catholic Church. I will have time later tonight.

God bless you. Pray for me and I will pray for you.
Tim Cooper


72 posted on 07/30/2007 1:59:13 PM PDT by CatholicTim
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To: Iscool
Your church apparently believes and teaches that there IS condemnation in Catholics unless you partake in the Eucharist, get sprinkled with 'holy' water, visit people in prison, etc...In other word, you provide your own righteousness

No, we just think that if a person dies in a state of unrepentant grave sin, he isn't "in Christ Jesus" anymore, and that's by his own free choice.

And there are plenty of Protestants who read the Bible and agree with us on that. Lutherans and Free Will Baptists do, for starters.

Incidentally, the Eucharist no more amounts to me "providing my own righteousness" than your "taking Jesus as your personal savior" amounts to you providing your own righteousness. Jesus Christ is the power and presence in the Holy Eucharist, not me.

BTW, Iscool, if a "once saved always saved" fundamental Christian becomes a fervent, orthodox Catholic, is he still saved?

73 posted on 07/30/2007 2:26:02 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: CatholicTim

Thanks for the post.


74 posted on 07/30/2007 3:23:00 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (Taz Struck By Lightning Faces Battery Charge)
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To: Iscool

Dr. Francis J. Beckwith, former President of the Evangelical Theological Society became convinced after prayerfully reading Hebrews that we can indeed fall back into sin and if we don’t repent we can be lost. Dr. Beckwith just joined the Catholic Church. I think there are numerous passages that talk about salvation as a process that requires perseverance.

Also you stated the Catholic position incorrectly. We are not saved by our works but by the blood of Jesus. It doesn’t look like you read my arguments relating to grace, free will and justification. We are made righteous by Jesus Christ alone, not by our own human efforts.

In addition the Church does teach that if we are abiding in Christ, if we remain in a state of grace we have the assurance of salvation. If we fall from the state of grace all we have to do is to confess our sins and we will be restored. We have the moral assurance of salvation which means that we don’t have to lose any sleep at night. I place my trust in Christ for my salvation and Christ never lets me down.

Mt. 7: 21-23 – “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’” Jesus is definite: Judgment will be based on how we live out our faith, not on ‘faith alone.’ For Jesus tells us those who do the Father’s will are saved, and he condemns ‘evildoers,’ not ‘unbelievers.’ Precisely the same point is made in Luke 13: 25-28.
Jn. 5: 29 – “’...all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.’” Judgment will depend on how we live out our faith. How could this simple fact be clearer in scripture?
Luke 10: 25-28 – Here Jesus answers the question of salvation directly. A scholar asks, “’Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?’ Jesus said to him, ‘What is written in the law? How do you read it?’ He said in reply, ‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.’ He replied to him, ‘You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.’” This passage is definitive. Look at the question first. It reads: ‘What must I do?’ Not, ‘What must I believe?’ And then examine Jesus’ reply. He does not affirm Luther’s principle – that we are saved by ‘faith alone.’ He says we must love – which is itself an act; indeed, it is an act that presupposes a multitude of subsequent acts – or we will not be saved. Finally, don’t miss the word, ‘inherit.’ An inheritance is a gift that is given, not a wage that is earned. Our loving acts amount to our acceptance of our inheritance, which was gained for us by the sacrifice of Jesus, the Lamb.
Rom. 2: 13 – “For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.” ‘Faith alone’ – simply hearing the law – is not enough to save us. Instead, we must commit ourselves to observing the law. Our actions are required – our positive response to God’s call.
Rom. 2: 5-11 – “...the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works.” Paul is clear on this. We will be judged by our commitment to our faith. Which is not the same thing as saying that our salvation comes through our own deeds or merits, for – as the Church has always taught – without Jesus there would be no possibility of redemption.
Rom. 1: 4-6 – Faith requires of us a response, an act – “obedience,” as we see in this passage: “Through him [Jesus], we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name…” Faith results in a concrete change of life. We must obey our “faith” and submit our wills to God’s. Through this phrase, “the obedience of faith,” St. Paul inextricably links faith to good works.
Rom. 6: 16 – Again, St. Paul refers to “obedience of faith.” Note that St. Paul nowhere refers to “faith alone.” Faith cannot exist in a vacuum. The truth is, there is no such thing as “faith alone,” apart from obedience, apart from good works, apart from love. Faith implies – requires – all these things. “Faith alone” is not faith at all.
Rom. 16: 26 – St. Paul’s “obedience of faith” refers to a faith response – a life-changing commitment we make to the God who has saved us: “…the commandment of the eternal God… has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith…”
Lk. 8: 13 – “...they believe only for a time and fall away...” One of the main points of the parable of the sower and the seed is that salvation is not assured. When we opt for evil – placing our will above God’s – we forfeit the salvation Jesus gained for us.
Phil. 2: 12 – “...work out your salvation in fear and trembling...” St. Paul is again clear: Salvation is not assured. For we may at any time succumb to temptation and reject God and his plan for our life.
1 Jn. 3: 7 – “Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous...” The person who acts, not the person who simply believes. Our active participation in – and commitment to – our faith is absolutely necessary.
James 1: 4 – “And let perseverance be perfect, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” We must persevere in the struggle for salvation while we are on earth. If we were totally assured of salvation in this life, this verse about ‘perseverance’ would be meaningless
Mt. 5: 19-20 – “’Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches those commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’” Actions seem to be important to Jesus. He expects us to keep the commandments, even though he also knows his death will atone for all sins.
Mt. 6: 1-4 – “’…take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you.” If doing good works is of no consequence, then why does Jesus tell us that the Father will repay us when we do them?
Heb. 10: 26-29 – “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God...?” We will be punished for our sins more severely than those who sinned before Jesus’ coming.
2 Pet. 1: 5-11 – “Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm.” Salvation is not guaranteed; we must do our best to preserve it. Also, St. Peter is indicating that the firmness of our election depends on us – and our response to the call of God – and not on the Lord’s sacrifice alone. Thus we see that faith is itself, in the way most Protestants use the term, a ‘work.’
1 Cor. 4: 4-5 – “...I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time...” Salvation is not assured, even for St. Paul.
1 Cor. 9: 27 – “...for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.” St. Paul is not absolutely assured of his own salvation. How could we possibly presume to be assured of ours?
1 Cor. 10: 12 – “...whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.” St. Paul is clear: Our salvation is not assured. It hangs in the balance and how we conduct our lives – the commitment we make to our faith, which we have received through the grace of God – will determine our ultimate disposition.
Gal. 5: 6 – St. Paul makes it clear that what counts is: “...faith working through love.” Hardly ‘faith alone.’
2 Tim. 2: 11-12 – “If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him.” Salvation is not based on ‘faith alone.’ Free gift that it is, faith must nonetheless lead to a life-changing commitment, which requires perseverance, as St. Paul observes. The conditional, ‘if,’ ought not be ignored here.
Rom. 3: 25 – Scripture gives us no indication that our sins are forgiven prior to our committing them: “...because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed...” ‘Previously committed’, not ‘committed in the future’ or ‘committed for all time.’
1 Jn. 3: 10 – “In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.” Again it would seem that ‘love alone’ is a more apt description of what is required for salvation than ‘faith alone.’ We are revealed as ‘children of the devil’ not by a lack of faith, but by a lack of righteous and loving actions.
2 Pet. 2: 20-21 – “For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world... again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.” So we see that those who were ‘once saved’ are not in fact ‘always saved.’
1 Cor. 4: 4-5 – “...do not make any judgment before the appointed time...” St. Paul is telling us clearly that salvation is not eternally assured.
Rom. 11: 22 – “...provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” Salvation is not assured until judgment. This is true even for those who are baptized, for the community St. Paul is writing to here is made up of believers.
Rom. 5: 2 – “...we boast in hope of the glory of God.” If salvation were assured, we would have more than just “hope.” We would have certainty.
Rom. 8: 24-25 – “...if we hope for what we do not see, we wait with endurance.” Our salvation is not totally assured. We must endure.
Lk. 13: 6-9 – “’...it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’” We must bear fruit in this life – i.e., we must work to further God’s plan – or we risk being cut down. What will insure that we bear fruit? Not ‘faith alone,’ but a life-changing commitment to our faith.
Heb. 6: 4-8 – “For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt.” Salvation is not always assured.
Gal. 6: 6-10 – “...let us not grow tired of doing good...” Our actions do matter, which is why St. Paul is constantly exhorting his followers to do good.
Mk. 14: 38 – “Watch and pray that you not enter into temptation.” Salvation is not assured until judgment, because at any time we may “enter into temptation” and fall into sin.
Mt. 10: 22 – “...whoever endures to the end will be saved.” Our salvation is not fully and totally assured. Our endurance – our perseverance – is required.
Rom. 6: 16 – Justification is a process we continually anticipate: “...you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness.” Justification is not something accomplished once, in the past. We see by the tense of the verb, ‘leads,’ that it is ongoing, continuing through our lives.
Mt. 12: 36 – Not only our actions, but our words will determine our judgment: “I tell you, on the day of judgment, people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Gal. 5: 4-5 – Justification is a process we await: “...we await the hope of righteousness.” Justification is not a once-for-all occurrence. It happened in the past. It is happening now. It will happen in the future – all provided we respond positively to the free gift of God’s call.
Gal. 2: 17 – Justification is not permanent, not assured: “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!” Some who may consider themselves to be ‘saved’ will in fact be ‘found to be sinners.’
Rom. 3: 24 – St. Paul refers to justification in the present tense: “They are justified freely by his grace...” So justification is clearly an ongoing process that takes place in the past, present and future. It is not a ‘once-saved-always-saved’ proposition that so many preach.
1 Cor. 1: 18 – Again, justification is said to be ongoing; Paul refers to it in the present tense: “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
Jn. 3: 19-21 – “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.” Evil actions separate us from the light.
Mk. 14: 38 – “Watch and pray that you not enter into temptation.” Salvation is not assured until judgment, because at any time we may “enter into temptation” and fall into sin.
Mt. 10: 22 – “...whoever endures to the end will be saved.” Our salvation is not fully and totally assured. Our endurance – our perseverance – is required.
Rom. 6: 16 – Justification is a process we continually anticipate: “...you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness.” Justification is not something accomplished once, in the past. We see by the tense of the verb, ‘leads,’ that it is ongoing, continuing through our lives.
Mt. 12: 36 – Not only our actions, but our words will determine our judgment: “I tell you, on the day of judgment, people will render an account for every careless word they speak. By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Gal. 5: 4-5 – Justification is a process we await: “...we await the hope of righteousness.” Justification is not a once-for-all occurrence. It happened in the past. It is happening now. It will happen in the future – all provided we respond positively to the free gift of God’s call.
Gal. 2: 17 – Justification is not permanent, not assured: “But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves are found to be sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? Of course not!” Some who may consider themselves to be ‘saved’ will in fact be ‘found to be sinners.’
Rom. 3: 24 – St. Paul refers to justification in the present tense: “They are justified freely by his grace...” So justification is clearly an ongoing process that takes place in the past, present and future. It is not a ‘once-saved-always-saved’ proposition that so many preach.
1 Cor. 1: 18 – Again, justification is said to be ongoing; Paul refers to it in the present tense: “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”
Jn. 3: 19-21 – “For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed.” Evil actions separate us from the light.

I will respond to the verses you stated later tonight.

God bless!


75 posted on 07/30/2007 4:12:41 PM PDT by CatholicTim
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To: Iscool

Saint John Chrysostom [347-407 AD] from Homily 13 on Romans gives us a good explanation why Romans 7-8 does not give evidence to “once saved always saved”.

“Then as the fact that many fall into sin even after baptism presented a difficulty antepipten, he consequently hastened to meet it, and says not merely “to them that are in Christ Jesus,” but adds, “who walk not after the flesh;” so showing that all afterward comes of our listlessness. For now we have the power of walking not after the flesh, but then it was a difficult task. Then he gives another proof of it by the sequel, in the words…”

The key word in this passage is “WALK”! Walking means a process of continuing in God’s grace, not a one-time, once-and-for-all-time conversion experience.

Even virulent anti-Catholic, David W. Bercot, wrote a book “Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up” and discusses at length the universality of teachings of the early church fathers against the notion of “once saved always saved”. Here is a portion of his book:

“Since the early Christians believed that our continued faith and obedience were necessary for salvation, it naturally follows that they believed that a “saved” person could still end up being lost. For Example, Irenaaeus, the pupil of Polycarp, wrote, “Christ will not die again on behalf of the those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him… Therefore we should not be puffed up… But we should beware lest somehow, after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins but rather be shut out of His kingdom”

Tertullian wrote, “some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift. They turn His liberality into slavery… For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?”

Cyprian told his fellow believers, “it is written, “He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved. Matt 10:22. So whoever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent.”

I will get some more quotes for you tomorrow. Unfortunately for yoursake the idea that all future sins are forgiven didn’t come around until Calvin. This notion is a novel, corrupt manmade tradition started by Calvin.

Please provide for me a verse that talks about “future sins”. You can’t do it because such a verse doesn’t exist.

Keep praying for me and I will keep praying for you.

God Bless,
Tim Cooper


76 posted on 07/30/2007 6:48:37 PM PDT by CatholicTim
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...

.


77 posted on 07/30/2007 10:24:27 PM PDT by Coleus (Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: Salvation

Bookmarking for future read. Bless you for aggregating all these posts.


78 posted on 07/31/2007 12:16:35 AM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion (Pray for our President and for our heroes in Iraq and Afghanistan, and around the world!)
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To: CatholicTim
Great list. Succinct, and to the point.

The following bears repeating, especially considering the fact that St. Ignatius was instructed by the apostle John.

“They [heretics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again... It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public… See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD]
Epistle to the Smyraeans


79 posted on 07/31/2007 7:36:03 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: NYer
Marcus Grodi interviewed Doug Gonzales 2 years ago. He too was a Nazarene. He lost his wife and children in the process of his conversion.

I saw that program. It was a very sad story, but it reminded me of Luke 51-52. Aside from martyrdom, I can't imagine a greater sacrifice.

80 posted on 07/31/2007 7:40:41 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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