"Bless you."
Posted on 06/10/2007 4:48:46 AM PDT by markomalley
John 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Not His mother. Yet everything in Catholicism points to Mary and away from Christ. It appears that Christ is just a victim and quite powerless. Catholicism focuses on the broken Jesus, not the resurrected Lord seated on the right hand of the Father. Then it's all about Mary, all Mary all the time. That's not the Christian religion, it's something else.
Amen. (Mk.7:7-9)
This has been evolving for a long time but your reference was certainly an eye popper. I did a google on it and sure enough, there are a number of Catholic websites that ties Mary directly to the Eucharist. Even the Orthodox are very uneasy with all this Mary stuff. You're right, it has become all about Mary.
"Bless you."
Divine Victim? ::shivers::
To support this proposition you offer:
"the Mother of the Mystical Body, of which the Eucharist is the symbol and vital center."
I don't see how this supports your proposition. I know that in answering even the most ridiculous charge levied by anti-Catholics, "parsing" is considered somehow wrong, but this cries out for parsing. The relative clause "of which the Eucharist is the symbol and vital center" modifies "Body".
Further "body" is the object of the preposition "of" in a prepositional phrase which modifies "Mother".
It is not the mother of which the Eucharist is the symbol but the Body. The quote indicates that the Eucharist body of Christ, which is not a new thing for us to assert, and the Church is the mystical body of Christ, a notion you may have read before, and that the Eucharist therefore symbolizes the Church, a notion advocated in an argument against something I said -- by a Protestant!
I know that you don't think that the Eucharistic species are truly the Body and Blood of Christ, but I didn't think the notion that the Church is the mystical body of Christ was controversial, or that it was controversial that Mary was the mother of the sho' 'nuff body of Christ, though I suppose I can understand some balking at concluding from that that she is somehow the Mother of the Church.
But the fragment you cite neither says, implies, nor suggests that Mary IS the Eucharist...
...EXCEPT in the sense that the "elements" we offer are symbols of many things including our selves, since it is not only God's bounty through nature, but human work that makes bread and wine and that yields the profits which can be spent on supplying them for the altar. So, if you are baptized with water in the name of the Trinity, we would say that you also are offered in the Eucharist.
Now to the second citation:
"We trust that they will imitate in her the most perfect model of union with Jesus our Head; we trust that they will join Mary in the offering of the Divine Victim."
I just don't see how this adds anything to your contention.
I know that reason and logic really need not apply in conversations with people who gleefully accuse us of worshipping a "wafer god", but in my better moments at least, I try to use the odd spot of reason and logic. Here my efforts lead to no connection between your proposition and the words you quote. Our union with Christ as members of his body is imperfect, and the promise made is that it will become more perfect. That's controversial?
So in your mass then, is “the chuch” as Mary, or united to Mary as one, now “immolating Christ”. Is that what you all are up to in the “mystical rite?” just asking, cause it sure looks like it
You wanna rephrase, please? I don’t get the question.
You said:
Apparently now Mary is the eucharist, not even Christ.
And I tried to respond to that.
Did we settle that? Are you raising a new question?
we trust that they will join Mary in the offering of the Divine Victim."
Is that what you are up to in your mystical rite?
By making Christ a victim & saying that Mary (and we) are offering Him, it's putting everything totally upside down. I'm not saying that we are victims of anything other than ourselves, but instead it's giving us a whole lot more power in all of it IMHO. Christ offered Himself & Mary is joining us in recieving Him makes a lot more sense.
Are you still contending that we say Mary is the Eucharist? You made the charge on the basis of what looked like a mistaken reading of a setence or two. I attempted to answer it. Did I?
The tag is; “Christ the victim, Christ the priest.” BOTH offerER and offerED. Is that less intolerable?
I don't see it as making it into a literal manifestation, but instead it's using new or different symbolism, while trying to include additional understanding of Mary's role in it all. It's not like mothers carry babes in their stomachs.
Not really. If you're saying it in the sense that our sinful ways made Him our victim, I don't see it as something to celebrate, so asking us to join in it again along with Mary makes NO sense. That He suffered at our hands, no doubt, but seeing Him as our victim because of it, like I said, it's giving us too much power.
Sorry to take so long. Been gone for a few days.
Sky King was an old TV show hero (western with an airplane instead of a horse) back in the early 60’s.
I guess, in the context of coming from a grunt, that makes sense ;)
Hope your couple of days away was your choice and that it was good (vice the alternative). Peace be with you!
We had our annual, regional denominational conference to attend. Pleasant, but extremely frustrating. Many are a blithering band of bozos.
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