Changes Coming to Catholic Mass

Los Angeles Times ^ | June 16, 2006 | K. Connie Kang

[kellynla]

After much prayer and deliberation, the nation's Roman Catholic bishops on Thursday overwhelmingly approved a new English translation for the Mass that will change the prayers tens of millions of American Catholics have recited for more than three decades.

The 173-29 vote of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, meeting in Los Angeles for their spring session, means that American Catholics will soon have to learn slightly different versions of texts that have become second nature.

For instance, at present, when the priest says, "The Lord be with you," the congregation responds, "And also with you." Under the new translation, the response will be, "And also with your spirit."

The new translation conforms to recent Vatican rules designed to make liturgy more accurately reflect the original Latin of the Roman Missal. Thus far, the new English translation has been adopted by bishops in England, Scotland, Australia and Wales.

Bishop Donald Trautman, chairman of the conference's Committee on the Liturgy, called the decision "the most significant liturgical action" to come before the policymaking body in years.

[fatnotlazy]

Latin is great first second language to learn. The rules are straightfoward and it is an easy transition to Spanish or French.

***

You're right. I took French in school and ultimately picked up a considerable amount of Italian as well. Generally, if you know Latin, you can learn any of these languages.

[oh8eleven]

Your original post was, "Actually this does make mass more accurate. They're right on this one."
My point is that it doesn't make Mass more accurate, it's merely a translation of a word.

Quite frankly, the RC Church should be concerned (internally) with a lot more than a word in the Mass.

[firebrand]

More likely: One could go anywhere in the world and not know the language of the Mass.

[fatnotlazy]

Dominus Vobiscum

***

My grandfather from Austria (he spoke an Austrian dialect of German) said that when he was a young child, he wondered why everyone in church was looking for Dominic. Evidenly, Dominus Vobiscum sounds something like the German for "Dominic, where are you?" :)

[TaxRelief]

Our church has been saying "And with thy spirit." since 1928. (I thought it was a bit odd...)

:-)

[Aggie99]

The Lutherans have their religious songs devoted to beer, and the Catholics have Latin :D I'll buy that.

One other thing, if you could indulge: when everyone goes to communion, and I stay behind, sometimes these older ladies pass me and tell me that they'll pray for me. I usually nod and smile, but honestly, its a bit offensive. Any thoughts on that? Not that this is on topic...

[kellynla]

The late Pope John Paul II, noticing during his trips around the world that elements of the Mass differed nation by nation and language by language, acted as a catalyst for the renewed translation effort, Roche said.

"If the bishops of the English-speaking countries can agree on a single version of the Mass, what a sign of catholicity that will be," Roche said.

All the more reason to return to the Latin Mass.

[TNCMAXQ]

Memories of my childhood are coming back now.... I also remember "Lord I am not worthy to receive you under my roof, but only say the word and my soul will be healed." Did you have to say that 3 times? That part I don't remember.

At what point did they stop saying "and with your spirit?" I remember that too, but from a very long time ago.

[TheCrusader]

"Does one need to return to the church? I understand the do not fore-sake they fellow worshipers part but isn't it more important to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior?"

I think it's safe to say that the Church accepts the Lord Jesus Christ as the Savior. But does it end there, or do we need to worship Him the way He taught us to, and as the Apostles and Christians throughout the ages have done? "Accepting" Jesus Christ as Saviour carries with it some awesome responsibilities and duties, and worship is where it all starts.

[TaxRelief]

For 2000 years, the Catholic Church has watched civilizations rise and fall.

[SoothingDave]

Having said all that, I feel a bit concerned that the perception of important items to addres is on liturgical elements, in particular, matching English and Latin phrases. I'm not being aggressive here, this really is a question: what does it matter? Any thoughts?

There's an old Latin saying that goes "lex orandi, lex credndi". That is, roughly, the way people pray is the way the believe.

When the words people hear and pray at the Mass diverge wildly from the original (and definitive, all others are translations) versions people will end up missing concepts and adopting attitudes that are not in the original.

Why is "and also with you" different from "and with your spirit"? One is a banal, yada yada, right back atcha. It's conversational. Have a good day. You, too.

The true version refers to the spirit and reminds us to think of ourselves as a spirit and body. We are being reminded that worship is a spiritual act.

Examine the fine work of Fr Z at (www.wdtprs.com) "What Does the Prayer Really Say?"

The prayers of the Mass, as translated in 1970 are banal and fail to reflect our gratitude and the majesty of God. The typical ICEL prayer is satirized as:

"Oh God, you are so big. Help us to be big like you."

The Latin, and a proper English translation, reveals a much more reverent attitude. "Lord, we humbly beseech you..." rather than "God, give us..."

SD

[Aggie99]

True statement. The Jews have been doing that for a bit longer.

[klossg]

"Religion is a waste of time for the weak minded. As a Catholic I know Catholicism is a sham and utterly corrupt "religion." It has no meaning."

Thanks for your pleasantries. Have a good day anyway.

[Claud]

Minor changes here, but some sound awfully familiar. As I recall, back in the late 1960s and early 70s, we used to say Lord I am not worthy to receive you under my roof." Sounds like they are going back to that. Also, was it not customary in past decades to say "I have sinned through my fault, through my most grievous fault" before they shortened that? This sound almost like they are going back to some old ways when it comes to some of these responses.

Bingo. I think you are remembering the Missal of 1965, which was English but more traditional than the Missal of 1970 or whenever it was.

[Talking_Mouse]

Obviously, I am in the minority here. I love hearing the Mass in the language that I speak. I have been to Latin Masses, and know what is being said when, however I most definitely prefer a Mass in my language.

Jesus spoke the words of the first Mass in Aramaic. They were written in Greek in the Gospels. Latin is no more holy a language than any other.

I know many people on this board want to be able to assist at Mass in Latin and I continue to pray for the Universal Indult so that the Lord can be worshiped joyfully by all His people. I, as a daughter of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, prefer to worship Him in my own language.

[kellynla]

Oh, I'm sure they mean no offense.
They're just trying to be nice...and Christian.
I know I appreciate anyone telling me that they'll pray for me.
Lord knows I need all the help I can get. :-]

[franky]

Romans 3:23 "For ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."

That includes Priests.

There was only One who was perfect and roamed the earth.

Your post of. "The church is ruled by men not God..." is completely contrary to the Scriptures.

It was the Lord who built the Church, gave Peter the keys, and will be with the Church until the end of time.

[Aggie99]

Hey, really appreciate that input. Honestly. I don't necessarily agree with the direct relationship of verbiage to spiritual attitude, but I certainly can see the point - it'd be difficult to be very spiritual cussing up a storm in a Vegas casino.

You made a great point about the "Help us be big like you" prayers. Catholics also seem to ask for forgiveness a whole lot more than at least Lutheran and Methodist (not being sarcastic here, though it could come off that way) - and this seems to drive people to just go through the words and motions during the service (thank goodness for the little book, by the way, else I'd be lost). Observing this for a few years makes me wonder if changing the service to something more current would help - or hinder. And yes, I can see that the big can of worms I'm opening is going to spill all over - it's just an observation. No flaming, please :D

[TaxRelief]

The Jews have been [watching the rise and fall of civilizations] for a bit longer [than the Vatican].

In a more scattered, less centralized way, this is true.

[kellynla]

well, the paramount issue is that WE ALL GO TO MASS! LOL
but it would be nice if ALL the parishes had at least one Mass in Latin...they certainly don't have a problem having a Mass in Spanish and/or Vietnamese depending on where you live.