Indulgences: Spreading the Wealth

"Really? Where in the Bible is God's justice expressed in terms like "more than likely"?"

The Bible is clear that those who do not pursue righteousness will not see life. Period. The reason I said "more that likely" is because I believe it is possible for a person to become spiritually confused and loose the way for a time - even a long time - but eventually come back around. But the habitual sinner or the characteristically worldly person, religion or no, will not see the life to come. They may think that their life-long participation in Catholic ritual may allow them to "burn it off" in "purgatory" but if their hearts have never truly been changed by Christ in spiritual regeneration, they will die in their sins.

"Anyone consoled by Purgatory either does not understand it or does not believe in it."

I know many who believe that. It is akin to the person who believes they can wait and get right with God on their deathbed.

"The pains associated with the worst possible martyrdom on earth are nothing compared to the horrible pain associated with the lightest sentence in Purgatory."

What do you base this belief on?

"How many of these errors have been multiplied by the doctrine of sola scriptura? In its name so many have justified abortion, priestesses, aggressive war, homosexual marriage and even the stoning of adulteresses. And this is the result of sola scriptura understood correctly. The Scriptures themselves may be misunderstood, but the doctrine is not."

Well, then, in all fairness are we to lay the sodomizing of small children by homosexual priests and ensuing coverup by self-serving Bishops at the feet of the Magesterium? And is this the result of a Church taught correctly and infallibly by the Magesterium?

""Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven!" - who would not want the Apostles to forgive their sins?!?"

Have you never wondered why the Apostles are never shown "forgiving sins" in the NT? Let me put this to you - it is because the only proper use of the power to forgive sins in the NT is via the Apostolic commission to preach the Gospel - something we see the Apostles doing every chance they get! It is only though the preaching of the Gospel that the Apostles can share with others the one thing that brings the forgiveness of sins - belief in Jesus Christ.

According to St. Francis de Sales, purgatory is sort of a mixed bag. It's hot, but there is also joy and consolation. Apparently, it's more of a "dry heat."

In a more positive light, St. Francis de Sales wrote of the sufferings of Purgatory, but as they are mitigated by the consolations which accompany them: "We may draw from the thought of Purgatory more consolation than apprehension. The greater part of those who dread Purgatory so much think more of their own interests than of the interests of God’s glory; this proceeds from the fact that they think only of the sufferings without considering the peace and happiness which are there enjoyed by the holy souls. It is true that the torments are so great that the most acute sufferings of this life bear no comparison to them; but the interior satisfaction which is there enjoyed is such that no prosperity nor contentment upon earth can equal it. The souls are in a continual union with God." (Espirit de St. Francois de Sales, IX, p. 16, quoted in Purgatory by Rev. F. X. Shouppe, S.J.)

""The gates of Hell shall not prevail against" the Church. "

Don't you see here that you are reading far more into this passage then it actually says???

"The gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church, therefore the Church shall neither fail in Her mission nor fall against the assaults of the devil, Satan, the Deceiver"

What is in view here is the fact that death will not be able to hold out against the victory of Christ. "Gates" keeps people out - they don't "attack" people! It is not the picture of Hades attacking Christ's church, but of the impossibility of death's victory over the church. Another verse that states says very nearly the same thing is in Acts 2...

"God raised Him up, ending the pains of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. Seeing this in advance, he spoke concerning the resurrection of the Messiah: He was not left in Hades, and His flesh did not experience decay. "

The "Gates of Death (Sheol, "hell") is a phrase from the Old Testament meaning to die (or be near death) and go to the afterlife.

Psalm 9:13
"Be gracious to me, O LORD! See my affliction from those who hate me,O you who lift me up from the gates of death,"

The verse says NOTHING about being deceived or deception.

"The Catholic Church shall not fall to the Deceiver, Satan, or to any of the deceivers who have gone out into the world "

Well, unless you can provide a better basis for or proof of your exegesis of this verse, it would seem the Catholics have been deceived - about this very passage!

So to sum up your logic: You've demanded an infallible presentation of all the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church in the format of your choice. Some guy you ran into on the Internet won't give this to you. Therefore, the Catholic Church doesn't exist.

To sum up your position, infallibility does exist in the Church, even if you can't point out exactly which teachings are infallible. Not much comfort, is it? Imagine a barrel full of apples. You are told that there are definitely some pure, unadulterated apples in there. But, there are also poisoned apples. Can't tell the difference from looking at them. Knowing that there are good apples in the barrel doesn't help me, if I can't identify them. I guess you just eat them all and realize you are being poisoned.

Scripture is my standard for spiritual knowledge. My belief and underlying assumption is that Scripture is infallible. If I run across an apparent contradiction, the possibility of error is not on my list because of my underlying assumption. I must dig deeper to look for the resolution, which usually brings me to a deeper understanding of scripture while resolving the conflict at the same time. Do you believe the same about the teachings of the Church? That it is free from error?

Catholics, then are left to decide for themselves if a teaching conforms to Scripture. Hey, that's what us protestants do!
This is a shameless falsehood. The Catholic faith existed before Scripture was written, let alone before it was canonized in 400 AD. The faith was passed down from the Apostles directly to their successors.

I'm failing to see what the age of the Church has to do with our discussion. Unless you are saying that ALL of Catholic teaching is infallible- are you?

A final question for you: are the teachings in Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II infallible?

To which "broader issue" do you refer?

Notwithstanding the glaring, obvious and dangerous errors found in the English translation by a friendly SSPXer, I find Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma to be a fine work.

Here is an example of one of the many dangerous errors to be found in the English translation of Ott's seminal work:

E.383, line 15: Emmanuel Maignan is designated O.Min. However Maignan was not a Franciscan as this title would indicate, but of the Order of Minims (O.Minim.) as F rightly indicates.

Horrors.

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