SIN , no such thing? YOU THINK Why is there confession?

[Rosary]

SIN, is a deliberate act against the laws of God.Sin affects each individual's soul and every person is born with a soul. The soul,the piece of each human that at death will never die,it is immortal. It- as the individual will, be judged before God,at the end of their life for both the good and the bad they have done and merit either,heaven a place of eternal happiness- or hell,a place of eternal punishment and misery for the SINS or Sins committed..without repentance and amendment of life. Confession,cleanses away the sin. That why the Catholic Church has Confession. Christ died to save mankind from their sins.Look at the crucifix,see how ugly the wounds of Christ! What pain SIN causes Jesus.

[fortunecookie]

Sin is doing what we know is wrong intentionally. We learn the Commandments, we learn the law of love taught to us by Jesus in the NT, we read the Bible, the Beatitudes, so we can learn what is wrong and what is right. Jesus brought us salvation by His sacrifice. We still have a responsibility to learn what is right and do it.

[HarleyD]

"Here is a very good article that addresses common Protestant fallacy of irresistible grace, salvation by faith alone...

It may also be helpful to point out Augustine's writing on the matter of Predestination of the Saints

You'll find Augustine believed in irresistible grace. Perhaps he was the first Protestant, eh?

[bert]

Confession is to make the sinner beholden to the priest.

[jo kus]

"Sin is doing what we know is wrong intentionally."

Actually, the Bible points out that sin can be unintenetional, as well.

Regards

[fortunecookie]

Well, true enough. I was thinking also more of sinning by intentionally not doing what is right and overlooked that.

[Dark Skies]

Oh my ,you say there NOTHING we can do?

He didn't say that...he said there is nothing we can do to MERIT (earn) salvation.

You cheat...what is your motive? What are you selling?

It is the Blood that is the gift...we did not earn It.

If the Holy Spirit is in you...let Him speak (and keep your own mouth shut).

If He is not in you...drop everything and go and find Him. He is right there...as close as your elbow, as close as your conscience.

[Frank Sheed]

Hey Harley! Up to your old tricks again? Here is what Augustine really believed in.

Cheers!'

Frank

[dsc]

"Confession is to make the sinner beholden to the priest."

It made me really sad to read that. How far, far off the mark it is.

[Mr. Jeeves]

"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other “sins” are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein

[Dark Skies]

"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other “sins” are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein

I like Heinlein. But that statment isn't true IMO. You are God's creation and He loves you more than you can imagine. Most of your sins are against yourself...it is their weight that drags on your conscience...that even murders your conscience.

That is why Jesus said that we need to come to Him as little children...with clean consciences.

Don't think I am here to judge. I once had a really filthy conscience (and history). He cleaned it up with His Blood.

God bless you...please give it some thought. There is someone that loves you enough to sacrifice His own Son. And His Son loved you so much He gladly paid the price.

Just consider it...He's there...waiting just for you.

Feel free to freep mail me...I am just a servant of His (once was the emperor of the universe of me...now I am a servant in His World. Things are infinitely better.)

DS

[lightman]

"Confession is to make the sinner beholden to the priest." (which I know are not your words).

I am also saddened, since so many fail to appreciate the joy of this Sacrament.

Confession is to make us beholden to Christ, of Whose word of forgiveness, pardon, and absolution the Priest is but a mouthpiece.

Luthera's Small Catechism:
Confession

How Christians should be taught to confess.

What is Confession?*

Confession embraces two parts: the one is, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the confessor, as from God Himself, and in no wise doubt, but firmly believe, that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

What sins should we confess?

Before God we should plead guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know, as we do in the Lord's Prayer. But before the confessor we should confess those sins alone which we know and feel in our hearts.

Which are these?

Here consider your station according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, master, mistress, a man-servant or maid-servant; whether you have been disobedient, unfaithful, slothful; whether you have grieved any one by words or deeds; whether you have stolen, neglected, or wasted aught, or done other injury.

Pray, Propose to Me a Brief Form of Confession.

Answer.

You should speak to the confessor thus: Reverend and dear sir, I beseech you to hear my confession, and to pronounce forgiveness to me for God's sake.

Proceed!

I, a poor sinner, confess myself before God guilty of all sins; especially I confess before you that I am a man-servant, a maidservant, etc. But, alas, I serve my master unfaithfully; for in this and in that I have not done what they commanded me; I have provoked them, and caused them to curse, have been negligent [in many things] and permitted damage to be done; have also been immodest in words and deeds, have quarreled with my equals, have grumbled and sworn at my mistress, etc. For all this I am sorry, and pray for grace; I want to do better.

A master or mistress may say thus:

In particular I confess before you that I have not faithfully trained my children, domestics, and wife [family] for God's glory. I have cursed, set a bad example by rude words and deeds, have done my neighbor harm and spoken evil of him, have overcharged and given false ware and short measure.

And whatever else he has done against God's command and his station, etc.

But if any one does not find himself burdened with such or greater sins, he should not trouble himself or search for or invent other sins, and thereby make confession a torture, but mention one or two that he knows. Thus: In particular I confess that I once cursed; again, I once used improper words, I have once neglected this or that, etc. Let this suffice.

But if you know of none at all (which, however is scarcely possible), then mention none in particular, but receive the forgiveness upon your general confession which you make before God to the confessor.

Then shall the confessor say:

God be merciful to thee and strengthen thy faith! Amen.

Furthermore:

Dost thou believe that my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?

Answer.

Yes, dear sir.

Then let him say:

As thou believest, so be it done unto thee. And by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ I forgive thee thy sins, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. Depart in peace.

But those who have great burdens upon their consciences, or are distressed and tempted, the confessor will know how to comfort and to encourage to faith with more passages of Scripture. This is to be merely a general form of confession for the unlearned.

[jo kus]

"You'll find Augustine believed in irresistible grace. Perhaps he was the first Protestant, eh?"

LOL!!!

He also thought that all unbaptized babies were going to hell, which was refuted by the Church. His form of "double predestination" is not the same as Calvin's, but it was also declared unift for Christian belief. (Augustinianism, way before the Protestant Reformation).

I know he did believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, though. If I remember, he said something to the effect "I would not believe the Scriptures if it were not for the authority of the Catholic Church". Smart, he was...
Anyone have the exact quote?

Regards

[Dark Skies]

Helloooooooooo? Anyone home? Servant of H.S. calling. Are you there? Or are you more interested in defense than Grace?

Tete a Tete, sil vous plais? Freep mail me if that is better for you. And know...I am only a servant.

[F16Fighter]

"Confession,cleanses away the sin."

IF it did, we wouldn't need Christ, would we?

[jo kus]

"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other “sins” are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein

If you define sin as separation from the ways of God and His fellowship, I would disagree.

I do not have to "wrong" someone else directly to sin.

Here's an example.

If I view pornography, I am told that is wrong by the Church. Well, "who does that hurt", Mr. Heinlein might ask? It will hurt my wife. Think about it. If I have such a disorder, I begin to treat sex as a selfish outlet for only me. I don't care anymore about my wife and the intimate sharing that married love is supposed to be. It is no longer the total giving of myself to the other. In the long run, I am not fulfilling what God has planned for me, happiness here on earth and with Him in heaven.

Even solo sinning changes our attitudes towards others. It will eventually effect how we view our neighbor. It separates us from God's intention of our destiny and dignity.

Regards

[Conservative til I die]

Confession is to make the sinner beholden to the priest. Brainless. Do you enjoy embarassing yourself on public forums?

[jo kus]

"IF it did, we wouldn't need Christ, would we?"

Confession means something only because Christ instituted it - AFTER the resurrection. Now, why would Christ give the Apostles the authority to forgive sins (John's Gospel) AFTER the resurrection if all was "done" on the cross? And why does Christ continuously intercede for us (Romans 8, and twice in Hebrews) if all is "done"?

What is done is what we call objective redemption. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all men of all ages. However, what we call subjective redemption is not done. This is the application of Christ's work to our own personal life. Or do you say that all people will go to heaven? Isn't it painfully obvious that some people will reject Christ, and thus NOT be saved, despite Christ's work?
Christ's work is NOT done, as God desires all men to be saved. Christ continually intercedes for us. His work is done ONLY after the Father subjects all things to Christ, including death. (I forget the verse, sorry. I'll look it up if you want later).

Regards

[InterestedQuestioner]

"I know he did believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, though. If I remember, he said something to the effect "I would not believe the Scriptures if it were not for the authority of the Catholic Church". Smart, he was...
Anyone have the exact quote?"

AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397.

CHAP4
CHAP. 4.--PROOFS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH.

5. For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure,

deed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)--not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion, in which almost all that you believe is contained. For in that unhappy time when we read it we were in your opinion enlightened. The epistle begins thus:--" Manichaeus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.; Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I donor believe Manichaeus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichaeus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichaeus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. (1) So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you;--If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichaeus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;--Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichaeus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichaeus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you. But if you read thence some passage clearly in favor of Manichaeus, I will believe neither them nor you: not them, for they lied to me about you; nor you, for you quote to me that Scripture which I had believed on the authority of those liars. But far be it that I should not believe the gospel; for believing it, I find no way of believing you too. For the names of the apostles, as there recorded, (2) do not include the name of Manichaeus. And who the successor of Christ's betrayer was we read in the Acts of the Apostles; (3) which book I must needs believe if I believe the gospel, since both writings alike Catholic authority commends to me. The same book contains the well-known narrative of the calling and apostleship of Paul. (4) Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichaeus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe. Will you read the passage where the Lord promised the Holy Spirit as a Paraclete, to the apostles? Concerning which passage, behold how many and how great are the things that restrain and deter me from believing in Manichaeus.

---St. Augustine, writing in 397 AD.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
Was that the quote you were looking for? For my part, I agree with St. Augustine. If the Catholic Church was corrupted, as every organization outside of the Catholic Faith must claim, then I have no logical reason to believe that the Bible would not have been corrupted with it. Nor do I have any reason to believe that the true message of Jesus Christ would have been re-discovered by human reason a millennial and a half after the time of Christ, or for that matter, two thousand years after the time of Christ.

Now we could substitute any number of individuals names for Manichaeus, and it would seem we are still having this same debate today. Where I differ in approach from Augustine, as far as this passage is concerned, is that I feel the scriptures are so thoroughly Catholic, that it will indeed confirm the Catholic position. That is to say, the Catholic Church is totally consistent with scripture. Where other religions differ from Catholicism, they will not be supported by scripture, and where they are contradicted by Catholicism, they will be contradicted by Scripture. The farther religions move from Catholic dogma, the farther they move from the Faith of the Bible.

And everyone is invited to banquet that is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am not saying that our Protestant brothers and sisters are not Christians, but I am saying that the Protestant tradition was invented by men a milenia and a half after the time of Christ, and depends upon Catholicim for its legitimacy. For my part, I have not been able to locate Protestant tradition in the Bible.

I appreciate Harley's point in recognizing that Protestantism did not exist during the time the Bible was written. To read it into the first 15 centuries of Christianity is an anachronism.

[jo kus]

"Was that the quote you were looking for?"

Yes, thanks.

What you wrote after the above sentence was excellent. Now, if we could only get them our separated brothers to see the logic of this. If you find a way that seems to work, let me know! I've been writing the same stuff for awhile now...

You like my tagline?

Regards

[InterestedQuestioner]

Excuse me, I meant to say that I have not been able to locate Protestant tradition, as it differs from Catholic teaching, in the bible.

This is not flame bait, I respect my Protestant brothers and sisters, and thank God for the strong Christian Witness that so many have provided.