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To: jo kus
"I know he did believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, though. If I remember, he said something to the effect "I would not believe the Scriptures if it were not for the authority of the Catholic Church". Smart, he was...
Anyone have the exact quote?"

AGAINST THE EPISTLE OF MANICHAEUS CALLED FUNDAMENTAL.(1)[CONTRA EPISTOLAM MANICHAEI QUAM VACANT FUNDAMENTI.] A.D. 397.

CHAP4
CHAP. 4.--PROOFS OF THE CATHOLIC FAITH.

5. For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life, so as to know it, in the scantiest measure,

deed, because they are but men, still without any uncertainty (since the rest of the multitude derive their entire security not from acuteness of intellect, but from simplicity of faith,)--not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should, though from the slowness of our understanding, or the small attainment of our life, the truth may not yet fully disclose itself. But with you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me, the promise of truth is the only thing that comes into play. Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church; but if there is only a promise without any fulfillment, no one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion, in which almost all that you believe is contained. For in that unhappy time when we read it we were in your opinion enlightened. The epistle begins thus:--" Manichaeus, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the providence of God the Father. These are wholesome words from the perennial and living fountain.; Now, if you please, patiently give heed to my inquiry. I donor believe Manichaeus to be an apostle of Christ. Do not, I beg of you, be enraged and begin to curse. For you know that it is my rule to believe none of your statements without consideration. Therefore I ask, who is this Manichaeus? You will reply, An apostle of Christ. I do not believe it. Now you are at a loss what to say or do; for you promised to give knowledge of the truth, and here you are forcing me to believe what I have no knowledge of. Perhaps you will read the gospel to me, and will attempt to find there a testimony to Manichaeus. But should you meet with a person not yet believing the gospel, how would you reply to him were he to say, I do not believe? For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church. (1) So when those on whose authority I have consented to believe in the gospel tell me not to believe in Manichaeus, how can I but consent? Take your choice. If you say, Believe the Catholics: their advice to me is to put no faith in you; so that, believing them, I am precluded from believing you;--If you say, Do not believe the Catholics: you cannot fairly use the gospel in bringing me to faith in Manichaeus; for it was at the command of the Catholics that I believed the gospel;--Again, if you say, You were right in believing the Catholics when they praised the gospel, but wrong in believing their vituperation of Manichaeus: do you think me such a fool as to believe or not to believe as you like or dislike, without any reason? It is therefore fairer and safer by far for me, having in one instance put faith in the Catholics, not to go over to you, till, instead of bidding me believe, you make me understand something in the clearest and most open manner. To convince me, then, you must put aside the gospel. If you keep to the gospel, I will keep to those who commanded me to believe the gospel; and, in obedience to them, I will not believe you at all. But if haply you should succeed in finding in the gospel an incontrovertible testimony to the apostleship of Manichaeus, you will weaken my regard for the authority of the Catholics who bid me not to believe you; and the effect of that will be, that I shall no longer be able to believe the gospel either, for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you. But if you read thence some passage clearly in favor of Manichaeus, I will believe neither them nor you: not them, for they lied to me about you; nor you, for you quote to me that Scripture which I had believed on the authority of those liars. But far be it that I should not believe the gospel; for believing it, I find no way of believing you too. For the names of the apostles, as there recorded, (2) do not include the name of Manichaeus. And who the successor of Christ's betrayer was we read in the Acts of the Apostles; (3) which book I must needs believe if I believe the gospel, since both writings alike Catholic authority commends to me. The same book contains the well-known narrative of the calling and apostleship of Paul. (4) Read me now, if you can, in the gospel where Manichaeus is called an apostle, or in any other book in which I have professed to believe. Will you read the passage where the Lord promised the Holy Spirit as a Paraclete, to the apostles? Concerning which passage, behold how many and how great are the things that restrain and deter me from believing in Manichaeus.

---St. Augustine, writing in 397 AD.


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Was that the quote you were looking for? For my part, I agree with St. Augustine. If the Catholic Church was corrupted, as every organization outside of the Catholic Faith must claim, then I have no logical reason to believe that the Bible would not have been corrupted with it. Nor do I have any reason to believe that the true message of Jesus Christ would have been re-discovered by human reason a millennial and a half after the time of Christ, or for that matter, two thousand years after the time of Christ.

Now we could substitute any number of individuals names for Manichaeus, and it would seem we are still having this same debate today. Where I differ in approach from Augustine, as far as this passage is concerned, is that I feel the scriptures are so thoroughly Catholic, that it will indeed confirm the Catholic position. That is to say, the Catholic Church is totally consistent with scripture. Where other religions differ from Catholicism, they will not be supported by scripture, and where they are contradicted by Catholicism, they will be contradicted by Scripture. The farther religions move from Catholic dogma, the farther they move from the Faith of the Bible.

And everyone is invited to banquet that is the Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am not saying that our Protestant brothers and sisters are not Christians, but I am saying that the Protestant tradition was invented by men a milenia and a half after the time of Christ, and depends upon Catholicim for its legitimacy. For my part, I have not been able to locate Protestant tradition in the Bible.

I appreciate Harley's point in recognizing that Protestantism did not exist during the time the Bible was written. To read it into the first 15 centuries of Christianity is an anachronism.
38 posted on 08/10/2005 9:21:11 PM PDT by InterestedQuestioner ("Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.")
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To: InterestedQuestioner

"Was that the quote you were looking for?"

Yes, thanks.

What you wrote after the above sentence was excellent. Now, if we could only get them our separated brothers to see the logic of this. If you find a way that seems to work, let me know! I've been writing the same stuff for awhile now...

You like my tagline?

Regards


39 posted on 08/10/2005 9:27:48 PM PDT by jo kus (Protestantism...a house built on the sand of a self-refuting axiom)
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