Posted on 05/16/2004 9:31:44 PM PDT by freedom44
"Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam; yet it is in Zoroastrianism itself that they have their fullest logical coherence ..." (Mary Boyce, Zoroastrians, pg 29)
Coming Comet will Destroy Earth See also Forthcoming Close Approaches To The Earth According to Zoroastrian scripture, the end of the world will come about when a comet, called Gochihr, strikes the earth. Its "fire and halo" will melt all metals and minerals and will burn up the world in a general conflagration. The resulting boiling flood of metal will flow over the earth like a river. The righteous, as well as the wicked souls (released from hell) will pass through it. The wicked will be purified of their sins, but the pious will feel like they're passing through warm milk. The most detailed description of this is found in the 30th chapter of the Bundahishn. Frashegird and the Millennium Frashegird (Av. 'Frasho-kereti', lit. 'making wonderful') refers to the renovation of the universe, the last judgment. The exact date of Zarathushtra is uncertain, but was probably around 1000-1200 BC.
Righteousness is so worthy and great and valuable, that in one place it is revealed that Zarathushtra asked Ohrmazd: 'How much time remains until the time of Frashegird, that is the making of Frashegird and the Future Body?' Ohrmazd said: '3,000 years'. Zarathushtra was afraid and said: 'A long time remains!' Ohrmazd said: 'Then do not let this time seem long to you, for so long as the souls of the righteous are in Garothman, then this much time of 3,000 years will seem in their sight as long a period and as easy as when a comely maiden of 15 years and a young man of 20 years come with one another to their house and sleep upon their soft quilts, and the young man loves the girl with all his soul, and for them that (alone) is required: "May night never become day!" So for those also who are righteous, for them on account of the pleasure and peace which is theirs in Garothman, then for them that (alone) is required: "May that time never come!"' (From Pahlavi Rivayat, ch 25. based on tr. of A.V. Williams, 1990.) Three saviors and the resurrection In his Gathas (Hymns), Zarathushtra tells us of The World Savior, Saoshyant (Pahl. Soshyant), who is to come and stop the cruelty of bloodthirsty and wicked people, and renew the world, and end death. See Yasna 48.11-12, Yasna 43.3, The victorious Saoshyant and his helpers make the world wonderful: Yt19.9+, Yt19.88+, Astvat-ereta rises out of lake Kansaoya, and Asha will conquer the Druj: Yt19.92+, Dk3.102, Exaltation of mankind, see Dk3.247, Dk3.407.
Three saviors will be born of virgins miraculously impregnated with Zarathushtra's seed while bathing in Lake Kansaoya: Aushedar, Aushedar-mah, and the Saoshyant (named Astvat-ereta). Compare the following account with Bd35.56-60, Bd33.36-38.
1. After that time when Zarathushtra came to a consultation with Ohrmazd, and 1,500 years after the time of Zarathushtra, when it is the millennium of Religion, Aushedar will come into consultation with Ohrmazd for 50 years. 2. On the same day Mihr Yazad, that is, the sun, will stand at mid-day, for ten days and nights it will stand at the zenith of Heavens. 3. For three years, whatever plants are not needed (i.e. not harvested) they will not wither then.
4. He [i.e. Aushedar] will purify the religion, he will bring (the ritual precepts of) Hadamansar into use, and men will act according to Hadamansar. 5. The (members of the) wolf species will all go to one place, and in one place they will be merged, and there will be one wolf whose breadth (will be) 415 paces and length 433 paces. 6. And on the authority of Aushedar they [i.e. the Mazda-worshippers] will muster an army, and they will go to battle with that wolf. First they will perform the yasna, and through their yasna (it will) not (be) possible to withstand (them).
7. Then Aushedar will say: 'With the sharpest and broadest blades find a means (to destroy) that demon of great strength'. And then men will slay that demon, with whip and dagger and mace and sword and lance and arrow and other weapons. 8. And for one parsang around, poison from that demon will envelop the earth and plants and they will burn. 9. Out of that a demon [?] will scamper (in) the form of a black locust, and it will go into the demon of the serpent, and in that will be its habitation; for this reason it will not (any longer) be very oppressive.
10. After 400 years there will be the Malkosan rain. 11. When it is the time for that rain, (in) the first year the upholders of Religion will say to people: 'Store provisions, for there will be rain'; people will store provisions.
12. (In) that year there will not be rain; and (in) the second year they will speak likewise and (people) will store provisions (but in) that year there will not be rain; (and in) the third year they will speak likewise and (people) will store provisions (but in) that year there will not be rain); and (in) the fourth year they will speak likewise and the unbelieving people will say: 'That which the Mazda-worshippers say will not be, for they said this before also, (but) it was not so'.
13. Those provisions which they have stored previously will not be required for ten winters, and they will not store provisions any more, and (in) that year there will be rain.
14. (In) the first year it will stop three times in summer, three times in winter; (in) the second year it will stop twice in winter, twice in summer; (in) the third year it will stop once in winter, and once in summer. 15. (In) the fourth year, (in) the month of Hordad and (on) the day of Dai-pa-Mihr, snow will fall, until the month of Dai on the day of Dai-pa-Mihr;14 it will not stop at all even for a (little) time (16) and then the Mazda-worshippers will curse (him); by the curse of the Mazda-worshippers he will die, and the lives of men and beneficent animals of the place will be weak.
17. And then in those times men and beneficent animals will be brought from the var which Jam [[Jamshed, i.e. Yima Khshaeta]] made, and they will stay in different places; and they will be very great in body, very comely, good workers. But he (is) a powerful demon, whom they will not be able to kill in battle.
18. And when that winter has passed, beneficent animals will be so weak so that when people see one of the beneficent animals, then it will seem to them (to be) a miracle. 19. And wild animals of the mountain and of the plain will come to men, and they will think thus: 'Men will treat us just like their own children'.
20. And then Ashawahist will cry out (from) above, and will speak thus: 'Do not kill those beneficent animals any more as you have killed them (up to) now! For the beneficent animals will come to maturity so (slowly) that henceforth they will dwindle away. Do not kill (them)!'
21. And the Mazda-worshippers will act accordingly. And the wild animals of the mountain and the plain, when maturity will come to their bodies so (slowly) that thenceforth they will dwindle away, will come to men and they will say: 'Eat me, before the devouring dragon devours me!' and the Mazda-worshippers will act accordingly.
22. At the end of the millennium, Aushedar-mah will come in to consultation with Ohrmazd for 30 years. 23. The sun will stand at the zenith from that day for 20 days and nights. 24. And for six years, those plants which are not needed will not wither. 25. And he will bring (the legal precepts of) Dadig into use: people will act according to the law.
26. And the (members of the) serpent species will all go forth to one place, and in one place they will be merged, and there will be one serpent, 833 paces in breadth 1,666 paces in length.
27. And on the authority of Aushedar-mah the Mazda-worshippers will muster an army and they will go into battle with that serpent.
28. When they arrive Aushedar-mah will say: 'perform the Yasna!' and they will perform the Yasna, and they will chase that demon away, and for one parsang poison from that demon will envelop the earth and they will burn.
29. From that a demon will scamper forth (in) the form of a black locust, and in the demon of the two-legged species (will be) its habitation; for this reason it will not (any longer) be very oppressive.
30. In that millennium, Zohak will escape from (his) fetters. He will take dominion over demons and men; thus he will clamour: 'Whoever does not harm water and fire and plants, then bring him so that I may devour him'.
31. And fire and water and plant will go to Ohrmazd complaining of the harm which men are doing to them, and they will say: 'Raise up Faridoon (who is) dead, so that he will smite Zohak, for if (it is) otherwise, I will not exist on the earth!'
32. Then Ohrmazd with the Amahraspands will approach the soul of Faridoon. 33. And he will say: 'Stand up, smite Zohak!' 34. The soul of Faridoon will say: 'I cannot smite (him), go to the soul of Saman Kersasp!' 35. Then Ohrmazd with the Amahraspands will approach the soul of Saman , and he will raise up Saman Kersasp, and he [i.e. Saman Kersasp] will slay Zohak. 36. Zohak will cry out so much that one quarter of the beneficent animals in Eranshahr will run away.
37. After that, at the end of the millennium of Aushedar-Mah, the Soshyans will come in to consultation with Ohrmazd for 30 years. 38. And (on) that day the sun will stand at the zenith for 30 days. 39. And when the Soshans comes back from consultation, then Kay Khosraw will come towards him, when he is sitting (up)on Way of the Long Dominion. 40. The Soshans will ask: 'What man are you, whose soul even (sits) (up)on Way of the Long Dominion, changed by you into the form of a camel?' 41. Kay Khosraw will answer: 'I am Kay Khosraw'.
42. And the Soshans will say: '(Are) you Kay Khosraw of far-reaching intelligence, who foresaw with wisdom when you destroyed the image shrine on (the shore of) Lake Chechast?' 43. Kay Khosraw will say: 'I am that Kay Khosraw'. 44. And the Soshans will say: 'So you did a goodly deed! For if you had not done (it), it would have been the thief of all that transformation whereby (there will be) the bringing about of the Good Renovation'.
45. Again he will ask: 'Did you smite the scoundrel Tur Frangrasiyab?' 46. He will say: 'I smote (him)'. 47. The Soshans will say: 'So you did a goodly deed! For if you had not smitten the scoundrel Tur Frangrasiyab, he would have been the thief of all that (transformation) whereby (there will be) the bringing about of the Good Renovation'.
48. The Soshans will say: 'Go, my Lord, and praise the Religion'; Kay Khosraw will praise the religion.
49. Then in those fifty-seven years Kay Khosraw will be Lord of the Seven Regions, the Soshans will be Mowbadan Mowbad.
50. And then Kersasp will go (forth) with that mace of good width, and Tus will stand before him and will put an arrow in (his) bow; he will say to Kersasp: 'Praise the Religion, that is perform the Yasna with the Gathas, throw away the mace, for if you do not praise the Religion and throw away the mace, then I shall shoot this arrow at you!'
51. Because of (his) fear of Tus's arrow, Kersasp will praise the Religion and throw away (his) mace.
52. All people will be upholders of Religion; they will be loving and benevolent to one another.
53. All people living after that will not die.
54. (As for) those (who are) dead, the Soshans, and the makers of the Renovation who are his helpers *will raise them in (their) dead bodies.
55. Ohrmazd will summon bones from the earth, and blood from the waters, and hair from the plants, and spirit from the wind; he will mix one with the other and he will create the form which each has [i.e. in this present life].
56. The Soshans will perform one Yasna, he will raise one fifth of the dead; with the second Yasna a fifth, with the third Yasna a fifth, with the fourth Yasna a fifth, with the fifth Yasna he will raise all the dead.
57. And every person will recognize (others), saying: 'This (is) my father' and 'this (is) my brother!' and 'this (is) my wife!' and 'this is someone of my family!'
58. There will once again be enjoyment of all food and all the things from which (there is) pleasure and comfort and enjoyment for mankind, just as Ohrmazd created (the world) in the primal creation.
59. There will be a thousand times as many foods and tastes as there are now. 60. He who (so) believes will eat, and he who does not (so) believe will not eat.
61. Ohrmazd will make this earth twice as great (in) length and breadth as it is now, and the human form will be made with the loveliness which they saw as most fair and good in the world.
62. A man will be given the very same padixshay wife whom he had in the material world. 63. He who had no wife, will then be given a wife. 64. The woman who had no husband will then be given a husband.
65. That man and woman who did extraordinary (good) deeds in the physical body, they will be given one to another.
66. And when they raise up the dead, those who perpetrated *injury and *harm to those of the *Good Religion and acted *with violence, they will all die; for three days they will lie down dead.
67. And then they will be restored, and those other margarzan (sinners), every one dead will be restored, except those *thinking and also *doing evil against the Yazads.
68. There was an authority who said: 'The dead will be raised up again, they will confess and for every margarzan (sin) which they committed, then shall their heads be cut off once, and they will be thrown back to Hell, and the punishment of 9,000 years will be shown to them'.
69. And at dawn after the third night Spandarmad will stand up and say: 'Punishment for all of them! And as for the other sinful ones, who were not margarzan sinners, they are to be punished for the sins they committed!'
70. And Shahrewar will melt the metal of all the mountains in the world, it [i.e. the molten metal] will reach (up to) mouth level at the place of the test, and all mankind will pass through that (molten) metal, and by this the sinful will finally become cleansed of their sins.
71. And for them the pain will be just as if molten metal were released on them in the material world. 72. For the righteous it will be easy, as if they take them into warm milk.
73. Before the Soshans will raise up the dead, on his authority an army will be mustered; they will go into battle with the demon Heresy.
74. He will ask the demon Heresy: 'Demon, your task against the belief of the Mazda-worshipping religion was that you committed a sin in the body which then said this: "I am the agent". Surely your task is pointless [?], is it not?' 75. And it will say: 'I am the offspring of the Evil Spirit, whose task is not pointless [?], nor is mine'.
76. The Soshans will perform one Yasna; that demon will slither away to the place where it is now; from that place it will slither back, and it will slither (over) this earth on the four uppermost sides, and the uppermost one third (of the total area).
77. The earth will cry out: 'I cannot endure this demon, which is indeed hidden, I cannot endure its habitation in me, for its seizes me with such scarification and tears me like the four-legged wolf when it tears the belly of beneficent animals from them and seizes their young.
78. 'So go forth, (you) who are Mazda-worshippers, and seek the remedy for this!' 79. Accordingly the Mazda-worshippers will muster an army and they will perform a Yasna. 80. That demon will slither from that place where it is. 81. And it will slither to the middle third part of this earth, and to the furthermost [i.e. lowest] third part. 82. The earth will cry out just as I wrote above.
83. And that demon will slither from that place, it will go to that (other) place where it is now, and it will seize the demon Gozihr, and will tell him: 'The creations of the Holy Spirit wish to inflict punishment on the creations of the Evil Spirit. I will never agree to (let) the creations of the Holy Spirit punish the creations of the Evil Spirit'. And both will slither off at once from that place.
84. And they will slither to the lowest third part, the furthermost third part of this earth, and the earth will cry out in the same manner (as I wrote above).
85. And the Mazda-worshippers will likewise perform a Yasna, and through their Yasna (it will) not (be) possible to withstand them.
88. And then Shahrewar will release molten metal into that hole where they entered (the world), and it will go in after them. 87. Those demons will thus fall from this earth to Hell, just as a stone, 88. when it falls or is thrown into water, quickly sinks to the bottom of the water. 89. Then when punishment is inflicted on the wicked ones, the Sosans will perform one act of worship and one-fifth of the other demons will be destroyed, and he will perform a second act of worship one-fifth (will be destroyed), (with) a third act of worship one-fifth (will be destroyed), (with) a fourth act of worship one-fifth (will be destroyed) and he will perform a fifth act of worship and all the demons will be taken away.
90. Wrath and Greed will (each) say to the Evil Spirit: 'I shall devour you, ignorant Evil Spirit for your creation has been seized from you and the thief (has suffered) no harm and it is not possible for me to survive'.
91. First demon-created Greed will devour Wrath of the bloody club, and second he will devour demon-created Zamestan, and thirdly Sej of the furtive movement, and fourthly Zarman short of breath, until (only) a few yet live.
92. The Evil Spirit will say to demon-created Greed, and demon-created Greed (will say) to the Evil Spirit: 'I shall devour you, ignorant one, for the Yazads seized the evil creation from you'.
93. The Evil Spirit will stand up and go to the Holy Spirit; thus he will say: 'This creation was created by me, and demon-created Greed, who is my creation, now says that you wish to devour me; I shall take you to judgment'.
94. Ohrmazd will stand up with Srosh the righteous, and Srosh's righteousness will smite Greed. Ohrmazd (95) will expel the Evil Spirit out of the sky, with the hateful darkness and the evil which he first brought when he invaded, and he will expel all (of it) from the sky through the hole through which he [i.e., the Evil Spirit] invaded. And that hole will make him so stunned and senseless, (that) after that (his) stupefaction will remain.
96. There was one who said: 'The eternally-existing ones will make him powerless by killing his form. The Evil Spirit will be no more: no (more) of his creation!'
97. At that time, when the wicked will have been punished and will have passed through the (molten) metal, there will be the Assembly of Isadwastar and reward and punishment will be given to every person (according) to the number of good deeds he has done.
98. They will perform one act of worship and the earth will rise by three spears (in) height, with the second act of worship it will rise by 300 spears (in) height, with the third act of worship (it will rise by 3,000 spears in height), with the fourth act of worship it will rise by 30,000 spears (in) height, with the fifth act of worship it will reach the star station, and Garothman will descend from the place (where it is now) to the star station.
99 Then Ohrmazd and the Amahraspands and all the Yazads and mankind will be in one place, and the star too and the moon and the sun and the Victorious Fire will all be in the form of a man who is strong, and they will all be in the form of a man, and they will come to the earth.
100. Then it will be entirely the creation of Ohrmazd.
101. And after that it will not be necessary for him to perform any action, and mankind, in the likeness of a body of 40 years of age, will all be immortal and deathless, and ageless, and without feeling or decay.
102. And their work will be this, to behold Ohrmazd and to pay homage, and to do for the other lords all (things) which seem to themselves very peaceful. Everyone will love others like himself. And the goodness of the Future Body, apart from what (I have) written above, is such that it can neither be known nor described through limited human knowledge and reason.
103. All the beneficent animals will exist once again, and (also) the taste of meat. Female will be caused to merge again into female and male into male until they have been merged once again in lineage back to the Uniquely-created Ox.
104. Then the body of the Ox will be fashioned in the spirit state, it will be merged into the body of men. It will leave the taste (of meat) in the body of men.
105. If, after that, meat eating is not necessary, it is because the pleasure of the taste of all meats will remain in the mouth at all times; and then the body of the Ox will return to mankind, and it will exist bodily in the material world.
106. And man and woman will have desire for one another, and they will enjoy it and consummate it but there will be no birth from them.
107. And the principal kinds of plants will be restored, and there will be no diminution of them, but every place (will be) like the spring, resembling a garden in which (there are) all (kinds of) plants and flowers; and with the wisdom of this world it is not possible to comprehend and know its wondrousness and worthiness and pleasantness and purity. (From Pahlavi Rivayat, ch 48. based on tr. of A.V. Williams, 1990.)
Other Prophecies (from Zand-i Vohuman Yasht) There will be seven ages, called the golden age, the silver age, the copper age, the brass age, the lead age, the steel age, and the iron age. By the winter of the tenth century (41), crops will not yield seed, plants will be small, people will be stunted and lack skill or energy. All people will worship greed and be of false religion. They become fat of body and hungry of soul (56). Clouds and fog will darken the whole sky. A hot wind and a cold wind will come and carry off all fruits and grain. The rain will not fall at its due time.
There are many things you state that trouble me but I think the root premise of Zoro being around first is a premise you need to check into first since it is false. From there I believe alot of your ideas will corrected.
Feel free to sue the timeline I already gave you that clearly indicates that Zoro people originated AFTER the Bible was written. So there is no way that Zoro beliefs influenced Christianity since the Bible was written BEFORE Zoro people were around to try and corrupt Judeo Christian teachings.
>> Most believe the whore is Rome or Constanople but certainly NOT Jerusalem. How did you come up with Jerusalem?<<
I side with Rome. But Jerusalem did imbibe itself with the blood of the martyrs, was destroyed with the beast, did pollute itself with foreign associations, and so on. Constantinople is new to me.
>> Revelation and it's character(s) have NOT occurred yet so I am puzzled as to how you could identify the beast to be Neron Caesar.<<
Typically prophets see something happening in the present around about their time, cast it in an inspired light, and use the events to illustrate the eternal and the future states of the world. Like Isaiah was writing about the liberation of Israel from Babylonian rule, and yet his writings applied simultaneously to the victory of Christ. OR David was writing about his deliverance from the Philistines, but also about Christ.
In the same way, John was writing about events which did actually take place (although he used symbolic language) to make comments which would be eternally relevant to Christians, and which would also tell us about our ultimate fate.
>> What serpent are you referring to in Revelation?<<
Actually, good call. There are two serpents in Revelation, BOTH of which represent Satan. In Revelations 12, we see the "new Eve" safely deliver Christ into the world, unmolested by the serpent. Later, we see an apocalyptic triumph over the serpent. He is not restricted to that form, but the depiction of him as a serpent suits the needs of the evangelists well.
>> Mohammed or rather Muslims do seem to have possibilities. Do you see Revelation as an allusion? Revelation means to reveal to how could it be a contemporary of John, who most believed wrote Revelation?<<
ALLusion. Please don't think I meant ILLusion. I mentioned the prophet separately because in his case the futuristic sense of the prophecy may also have come to pass. But if Mohammed was the futuristic sense of the prophecy, that means there may have been someone who was contemporary to John, since Mohammed was not. I can only speculate who that might be. The epistles of John do suggest that John was battling someone who denied the Resurrection while claiming to be a Christian.
>> Maybe you had better reveal the four primary evil characters you see in Revelation and I'll take it from there with questions.<<
The four evil characters: The serpent (both manifestations counted as one character), the beast, the prophet and the whore.
>> Well yes in the broad definition, anti Christ can be more than one person but in Revelation you and I seem to disagree.<<
This is why I keep asking who in Revelations do you suppose the anti-Christ is.
>>I'm just looking for the verse and the character you believe it is.<<
There is no single verse; I'm surveying all of Revelations to come up with those four evil persons; that's my point: the anti-Christ is in no verse of Revelations
Me: Most believe the whore is Rome or Constanople but certainly NOT Jerusalem. How did you come up with Jerusalem?<<
You: I side with Rome. But Jerusalem did imbibe itself with the blood of the martyrs, was destroyed with the beast, did pollute itself with foreign associations, and so on. Constantinople is new to me.
Me: I also agree with Rome and will not bother to explain why others see Constanople as a possibility.
Me: Revelation and it's character(s) have NOT occurred yet so I am puzzled as to how you could identify the beast to be Neron Caesar.<<
You: Typically prophets see something happening in the present around about their time, cast it in an inspired light, and use the events to illustrate the eternal and the future states of the world. Like Isaiah was writing about the liberation of Israel from Babylonian rule, and yet his writings applied simultaneously to the victory of Christ. OR David was writing about his deliverance from the Philistines, but also about Christ.
Me: Typically prophets see something in the FUTURE as John did he supposedly wrote Revelation which means the unveiling - at a future time. You lost me on Isaiah. You will need to give me passages to validate this simultaneous theory - same with David.
You: In the same way, John was writing about events which did actually take place (although he used symbolic language) to make comments which would be eternally relevant to Christians, and which would also tell us about our ultimate fate.
Me: No, John was writing about FUTURE events that had NOT taken place. Yes he used symbols but you have to read the Bible to understand what these symbols stand for. It is not immediately clear because you have to study what has occurred before in the Bible toproperly define the symbolism.
Me: What serpent are you referring to in Revelation?<<
You: Actually, good call. There are two serpents in Revelation, BOTH of which represent Satan. In Revelations 12, we see the "new Eve" safely deliver Christ into the world, unmolested by the serpent. Later, we see an apocalyptic triumph over the serpent. He is not restricted to that form, but the depiction of him as a serpent suits the needs of the evangelists well.
Me: Actually here is Revelation 12 and there is mention of a serpent but there is mention of other evil ones as well and evil being defeated in the end:
Rev.12
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I don't see the "new Eve" in the same light you do. There is nothing good about her symbolism either.
Me: Mohammed or rather Muslims do seem to have possibilities. Do you see Revelation as an allusion? Revelation means to reveal to how could it be a contemporary of John, who most believed wrote Revelation?<<
You: ALLusion. Please don't think I meant ILLusion. I mentioned the prophet separately because in his case the futuristic sense of the prophecy may also have come to pass. But if Mohammed was the futuristic sense of the prophecy, that means there may have been someone who was contemporary to John, since Mohammed was not. I can only speculate who that might be. The epistles of John do suggest that John was battling someone who denied the Resurrection while claiming to be a Christian.
Me: I am having difficulty getting a handle on what you are saying ... which prophecy are you now referring to - "which may have come to pass" ... also I disagree that John was talking about a comtemporary. Can you better explain that since it doesn't fit in at all with the purpose of Revelation. I am lost as to who you are referring to here:
"The epistles of John do suggest that John was battling someone who denied the Resurrection while claiming to be a Christian."
I don't see that anywhere in Revelation. Could you elaborate with a passage reference?
Me: Maybe you had better reveal the four primary evil characters you see in Revelation and I'll take it from there with questions.<<
You: The four evil characters: The serpent (both manifestations counted as one character), the beast, the prophet and the whore.
Me: They are represent Satan in different forms.
Me: Well yes in the broad definition, anti Christ can be more than one person but in Revelation you and I seem to disagree.<<
You: This is why I keep asking who in Revelations do you suppose the anti-Christ is.
Me: Neither you or I know. It's a mystery. Satan doesn't act alone hence the various forms.
Me:I'm just looking for the verse and the character you believe it is.<<
You: There is no single verse; I'm surveying all of Revelations to come up with those four evil persons; that's my point: the anti-Christ is in no verse of Revelations
Me: THe point is that the anti Christ has many followers and he has many forms however the ultimate anti Christ according to the Bible appears to be this:
Rev. 20:1-3
1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
If there were MORE than ONE anti Christ wouldn't God offer him/her the same accomodations?
I think so !
You're interesting ... otoh you appear to oppose this Zoro theory yet you promote it in your replies.
Again, I implore you to look at your premise - that Zoro is older than the Bible. This is FALSE. The Bible is the ONE you can count on and it doesn't include Zoro prophecy.
Generally speaking their is little commonality to the Bible:
You: Sorry to take so long to get back to you.
Me: No problem.
Me: How could the Bible copy Zoroastrian lies if the Bible came first?<<
You: The bible certainly did not copy Zoroastrian lies. I had tried to tell broadsword that the Zoroastrian elements of the Pharisaic faith were abominations and were recognized as such by Talmudic Jews. The most I did say was that the Zoroastrians came the closest first to the notion of the afterlife being separated into Paradise and Hell.
Me: Geesh - don't tell a Muslim that! MANY false religions make claim to that. I couldn't say that Zoro was the first.
Me: Zoroastrian appeared AFTER the Bible. As you can see this doesn't make sense. It is Zoroastrian that imitated the Bible. <<
You: I am utterly unqualified to take a position on the relative timeline between the exilic Jews and Zarathustra.
Me: Then you might want to take back your claim that Zoro was the first to write about Paradise and Hell. The timeline is very important because it highlights the fact that these other belief systems are imitations of Christianity.
Me: Next, if you don't think the anti Christ is being described in say, Revelation, than what do you think is being described?<<
You: Which person in Revelations do you refer to? The beast was Neron Caesar.
Me: How did you come up with this since Revelation is FUTURE not PAST?
You: the Whore may represent Rome and Jerusalem, in varying senses. The Serpent is Satan himself. These are identifying them based on the historical sense to which the prophecies were applied. If one reads the prophecies in a predictive way, then the personages are yet unrevealed, although not fits the common depiction of the anti-Christ. Who is the dark prophet? My best guess would be Mohammed, although there was probably someone who was contemporary to John who the figure allusion was based on.
Me: Ah ... here is part of the problem ... you are arbitrarily interpreting symbolism. You are not consistent. Let me clarify what you are doing:
1.Historicist – Revelation portrays the linear unfolding of history from the time of the Roman Empire and the Early Church, through to today, and on to the return of Christ. The main events as they have occurred in their correct historic sequence are recorded, in symbolic form, and there is no room for private interpretation.
2.Praeterist – this has been nicknamed the ‘lucky dip’ method. Readers take portions of the book at random and interpret them to fit whatever area of history they like. There is no linear aspect.
3.Futurist – this method is the most popular and widespread at the moment, with proponents such as Derek Prince and Barry Smith and many other leading Bible teachers and ministers. It is usually taught as the one and only correct interpretation to the exclusion of all others.
So you are mixing and matching interpretation methods!
You: These are the four primary evil characters in Revelation. Pick which one you believe to be the anti-Christ, and I will define how they do not fit the popular notion of the anti-Christ. To some extent, they are all anti-Christs, but only to the extent that Abe Foxman, Bishop Spong, Fidel Castro, Mohammad Gandhi, Pontius Pilate, Caiaphas, Caesar Nero and the my former housemates are anti-Christs. My former housemates did not exactly have millions of devout Christians praying fervently to be delivered from them. IOW, they are technically fit the very loose definitions of the epistles of John, but they do not fit the popular supposedly Christian notion of the anti-Christ.
Me:I am restricting my exchange to the Book of Revelation. I think we're getting a tad glib here. None of these people you list possess the attributes of the ultimate anti-Christ. Sure they're evil but they don't fit the picture of the AC painted in the Bible.
Me: The Old Testament attests also to the anti Christ. You've probably heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls ... well they validate the Old Testament that we read today. The Bible is consistent. <<
You: I don't find anything in the Old Testament to suggest an anti-Christ figure at all.
Me: you may want to check out Daniel or Isaiah. Daniel 9 tends to give some detail that may change you mind.
Me: Zoroastrian imitates the Bible and not the opposite. <<
You: Again, MY point, (and please don't confuse me with other posters) was to show that the Zoroastrian beliefs which have corrupted Christianity are NOT biblical.
Me: Okay but I see inconsistent interpretation problems from you concerning Revelation and the Old Testament.
>>Me: Zoroastrian appeared AFTER the Bible. As you can see this doesn't make sense. It is Zoroastrian that imitated the Bible.
You: I am utterly unqualified to take a position on the relative timeline between the exilic Jews and Zarathustra.
Me: Then you might want to take back your claim that Zoro was the first to write about Paradise and Hell. The timeline is very important because it highlights the fact that these other belief systems are imitations of Christianity. <<
Let me rephrase myself: There is apparently a broad disagreement among experts about the date of Zarathrustra. I have no way of deciding which of these experts is most reasonable. However, even the latest estimates predate biblical references to Heaven and Hell by 6 centuries, and Islam by well over a millennium.
>>Me: How did you come up with this since Revelation is FUTURE not PAST?<<
This is a common inference, but nothing in Revelations states whether these events are in the past or the future. John does, in fact, write in the past tense. However, it is typical of biblical prophecy for the prophet to write of something close to his own time, with meanings that will be fulfilled in the distant future. For instance, Isaiah's prophecies of the liberation of Israel describe Persia creating a free Israel c. 600 BC, just about as Isaiah was writing them. However, the same prophecies are also fulfilled by Jesus 6 centuries later, and have further meaning to the present day and to the end of days.
In this way, the preterist, historicist, and futurist all have partial validity. I would add a fourth: eternal. Prophecies do reveal the etrenal nature of Man, God, and their relationship. An excellent book about the eternal meaning of Revelation is "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.
>>None of these people you list possess the attributes of the ultimate anti-Christ. Sure they're evil but they don't fit the picture of the AC painted in the Bible. <<
That was precisely my point. The only explicit references to an anti-Christ are so vague, that these people *do* meet the definition....
>>Me: you may want to check out Daniel or Isaiah. Daniel 9 tends to give some detail that may change you mind. <<
Ah! Finally a reference I can look up! And you know what? While Revelations does not have any mention of anything resembling the anti-Christ, I will allow that the prince in Daniel 9:26-27 seems like a candidate!
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Gee, I wish that was in English. (Chuckle) The odd thing is that the PEOPLE of the Prince destroy the sanctuary, but the prince himself appears to have cooperated with the Messiah in building it. Almost as if the Prince is a good guy, but his people go evil: "Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks,"
YOu: Let me rephrase myself: There is apparently a broad disagreement among experts about the date of Zarathrustra. I have no way of deciding which of these experts is most reasonable. However, even the latest estimates predate biblical references to Heaven and Hell by 6 centuries, and Islam by well over a millennium.
Me: Actually that is false by the timeline I gave. Furthermore it is the Judeo Christian God that created ALL. He didn't create evil however He gave people and yes even the angels a CHOICE. Satan was created by God however he REBELLED against God. I have NO belief in Zoro or any of that nonsense but IF I ever did, by defnition God created this person or being. Does the Word made Flesh ring a bell? So no matter what timeline you come up with, doesn't matter. God created ALL!
Me: How did you come up with this since Revelation is FUTURE not PAST?<<
You: This is a common inference, but nothing in Revelations states whether these events are in the past or the future. John does, in fact, write in the past tense.
Me: No, John writes in the tense of the FUTURE.
You: However, it is typical of biblical prophecy for the prophet to write of something close to his own time, with meanings that will be fulfilled in the distant future.
Me: Here you go again, stating that John wrote in the past tense and then shift gears and generalize that he MAY have written in the future tense. You are arbitrary. The only thing JOhn did was describe events and things in words common to his time.
You: In this way, the preterist, historicist, and futurist all have partial validity. I would add a fourth: eternal. Prophecies do reveal the etrenal nature of Man, God, and their relationship. An excellent book about the eternal meaning of Revelation is "The Lamb's Supper" by Scott Hahn.
Me: No, you have to chose either preterist, historicist or futurist. You are mixing and matching prophecy for a predetermined outcome. Prophecy doesn't work like that. Prophecy is FUTURE in Revelation and in the Bible. Making up a third, "eternal" only further muddies the word. I don't need other books about prophecy ... the Bible is clear enough.
Me: Again you cannot mix and match interpretation methods for accurate prophecy:
1. Historicist – Revelation portrays the linear unfolding of history from the time of the Roman Empire and the Early Church, through to today, and on to the return of Christ. The main events as they have occurred in their correct historic sequence are recorded, in symbolic form, and there is no room for private interpretation.
2.Praeterist – this has been nicknamed the ‘lucky dip’ method. Readers take portions of the book at random and interpret them to fit whatever area of history they like. There is no linear aspect.
3.Futurist – this method is the most popular and widespread at the moment. It is usually taught as the one and only correct interpretation to the exclusion of all others.
Me: None of these people you list possess the attributes of the ultimate anti-Christ. Sure they're evil but they don't fit the picture of the AC painted in the Bible. <<
YOu: That was precisely my point. The only explicit references to an anti-Christ are so vague, that these people *do* meet the definition....
Me: Well ANYONE can create a straw man argument and that is what you did however it does NOT make a valid point. The people you mentioned are not the anti Christ. That is easliy determined by the Bibles descritption and WHY I know they are NOT the AC. The description of the AC in the Bible is NOT vague.
Me: you may want to check out Daniel or Isaiah. Daniel 9 tends to give some detail that may change you mind. <<
YOu: Ah! Finally a reference I can look up! And you know what? While Revelations does not have any mention of anything resembling the anti-Christ, I will allow that the prince in Daniel 9:26-27 seems like a candidate!
Me: The majority of Revelation is a description of the AC! I'm not about to copy/paste it here. I'm glad you can acknowledge Daniel ... .
You: "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
YOu: Gee, I wish that was in English. (Chuckle) The odd thing is that the PEOPLE of the Prince destroy the sanctuary, but the prince himself appears to have cooperated with the Messiah in building it. Almost as if the Prince is a good guy, but his people go evil: "Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks,"
Me: Evil NEVER cooperates with good. He did NOT cooperate with God. He was mocking God by doing what he did.
I could further explain this but it's pointless. You don't just leap into Biblical prophecy. You really need to spend some time with the Bible and stop using other sources fro interpretation. Your reaction to Daniel 9:26 tells me you rely on others, not the Bible for understanding. You can't do that. You really have to study it yourself and ask those well taught your questions - preferably ones not out to make a buck off you.
I'm not going to continue this. You're really not familiar with legitimate Biblical prophecy. You mix and match interpretation which leads to inconsistency and misses the point on what is being said. Your views in general are NOT orthodox. I lack the time to delve in and explain what I know to be true using the Greek and Hebrew.
Take care,
>>No, John writes in the tense of the FUTURE. <<
No, Joh writes in the past tense. "saw, sang, proclaimed, worshipped, fell". All these verbs are past tense. However, since he is describing a vision he SAW, it is reasonable to suppose that these visions are be of something yet to come. But that is a presumption, albeit a very reasonable one.
>>No, you have to chose either preterist, historicist or futurist.<<
Who says there is only one meaning? Did I not show how Isaiah had multiple meanings which have EACH been shown to be true? Surely you wouldn't argue that because Isaiah calls Cyrus the Messiah that means Jesus was not the Messiah.
>>The description of the AC in the Bible is NOT vague.<<
I'm beginning to lose patience. You tell me something, ANYTHING that the bible says about the anti-Christ. You keep saying "Revelations is all about the Anti-Christ." You show me ONE SINGLE PASSAGE in Revelations about the anti-Christ. I showed you the only four DIRECT references in the bible to the anti-Christ. If you find what you consider an indirect reference in Revelations, point it out.
The only things we are told about the anti-Christ in the bible:
There are many of them.
There have been anti-Christs since the time of John.
ANYONE (including my roommates) who denies the physical resurrection and godhood of the Son is the anti-Christ.
>>Me: The majority of Revelation is a description of the AC! I'm not about to copy/paste it here. I'm glad you can acknowledge Daniel ... <<
Tell me ONE PASSAGE. ONE VERSE. Or even answer my question as to WHICH PERSON in Revelations is the anti-Christ.
>>I'm not going to continue this. You're really not familiar with legitimate Biblical prophecy. <<
I'm beginning to think you never read Revelations at all.
It's clear to me that you are NOT familiar with the Bible and prophecy in particular.
Literally volumes have been written about this. I have never seen your home grown arbitrary interpretation before.
What you may want to do is read the Bible, understand the symbolism and then review this site:
http://www.messiahrevealed.org/
It matches up OLD and NEW Testament prophecy. It is consistent. It is not arbitrary. What is in the New Testament is not different than what is in the Old Testament. More or less detail is provided in both however both are describing the same events and Satan in his carious forms.
I pray you get over your pride and do this on your own. I fear your confusion is blinding you to fairly straight forward truth available to all who seek it.
SEEK IT!
Don't fabricate to suit your wishful predetermined outcome.
You still haven't cited a single reference from Revelations to the anti-Christ.
>> Literally volumes have been written about this. I have never seen your home grown arbitrary interpretation before. <<
Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I haven't studied it. There are so many schools of studying Revelations among 20th-century Protestants: Preterists, futurists, and historicists; a-millennialists, pre-mills, and post-mills, pre-tribs, post-tribs. The irony is that so many sola-scriptura Protestants seem to know nothing about Revelations other than what is peddled by snake-oil salesman, like Hal Lindsey and the LaHayes.
A dozne times I've asked you to tell me just what in Revelations you believe to be the anti-Christ. You're so sure it's there, but you can't find a single reference. And you have the nerve to tell me I don't know anything about Revelations?
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