>> Most believe the whore is Rome or Constanople but certainly NOT Jerusalem. How did you come up with Jerusalem?<<
I side with Rome. But Jerusalem did imbibe itself with the blood of the martyrs, was destroyed with the beast, did pollute itself with foreign associations, and so on. Constantinople is new to me.
>> Revelation and it's character(s) have NOT occurred yet so I am puzzled as to how you could identify the beast to be Neron Caesar.<<
Typically prophets see something happening in the present around about their time, cast it in an inspired light, and use the events to illustrate the eternal and the future states of the world. Like Isaiah was writing about the liberation of Israel from Babylonian rule, and yet his writings applied simultaneously to the victory of Christ. OR David was writing about his deliverance from the Philistines, but also about Christ.
In the same way, John was writing about events which did actually take place (although he used symbolic language) to make comments which would be eternally relevant to Christians, and which would also tell us about our ultimate fate.
>> What serpent are you referring to in Revelation?<<
Actually, good call. There are two serpents in Revelation, BOTH of which represent Satan. In Revelations 12, we see the "new Eve" safely deliver Christ into the world, unmolested by the serpent. Later, we see an apocalyptic triumph over the serpent. He is not restricted to that form, but the depiction of him as a serpent suits the needs of the evangelists well.
>> Mohammed or rather Muslims do seem to have possibilities. Do you see Revelation as an allusion? Revelation means to reveal to how could it be a contemporary of John, who most believed wrote Revelation?<<
ALLusion. Please don't think I meant ILLusion. I mentioned the prophet separately because in his case the futuristic sense of the prophecy may also have come to pass. But if Mohammed was the futuristic sense of the prophecy, that means there may have been someone who was contemporary to John, since Mohammed was not. I can only speculate who that might be. The epistles of John do suggest that John was battling someone who denied the Resurrection while claiming to be a Christian.
>> Maybe you had better reveal the four primary evil characters you see in Revelation and I'll take it from there with questions.<<
The four evil characters: The serpent (both manifestations counted as one character), the beast, the prophet and the whore.
>> Well yes in the broad definition, anti Christ can be more than one person but in Revelation you and I seem to disagree.<<
This is why I keep asking who in Revelations do you suppose the anti-Christ is.
>>I'm just looking for the verse and the character you believe it is.<<
There is no single verse; I'm surveying all of Revelations to come up with those four evil persons; that's my point: the anti-Christ is in no verse of Revelations
Me: Most believe the whore is Rome or Constanople but certainly NOT Jerusalem. How did you come up with Jerusalem?<<
You: I side with Rome. But Jerusalem did imbibe itself with the blood of the martyrs, was destroyed with the beast, did pollute itself with foreign associations, and so on. Constantinople is new to me.
Me: I also agree with Rome and will not bother to explain why others see Constanople as a possibility.
Me: Revelation and it's character(s) have NOT occurred yet so I am puzzled as to how you could identify the beast to be Neron Caesar.<<
You: Typically prophets see something happening in the present around about their time, cast it in an inspired light, and use the events to illustrate the eternal and the future states of the world. Like Isaiah was writing about the liberation of Israel from Babylonian rule, and yet his writings applied simultaneously to the victory of Christ. OR David was writing about his deliverance from the Philistines, but also about Christ.
Me: Typically prophets see something in the FUTURE as John did he supposedly wrote Revelation which means the unveiling - at a future time. You lost me on Isaiah. You will need to give me passages to validate this simultaneous theory - same with David.
You: In the same way, John was writing about events which did actually take place (although he used symbolic language) to make comments which would be eternally relevant to Christians, and which would also tell us about our ultimate fate.
Me: No, John was writing about FUTURE events that had NOT taken place. Yes he used symbols but you have to read the Bible to understand what these symbols stand for. It is not immediately clear because you have to study what has occurred before in the Bible toproperly define the symbolism.
Me: What serpent are you referring to in Revelation?<<
You: Actually, good call. There are two serpents in Revelation, BOTH of which represent Satan. In Revelations 12, we see the "new Eve" safely deliver Christ into the world, unmolested by the serpent. Later, we see an apocalyptic triumph over the serpent. He is not restricted to that form, but the depiction of him as a serpent suits the needs of the evangelists well.
Me: Actually here is Revelation 12 and there is mention of a serpent but there is mention of other evil ones as well and evil being defeated in the end:
Rev.12
[1] And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
[3] And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
[7] And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
[12] Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
[13] And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
[14] And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
[15] And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
[16] And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
[17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I don't see the "new Eve" in the same light you do. There is nothing good about her symbolism either.
Me: Mohammed or rather Muslims do seem to have possibilities. Do you see Revelation as an allusion? Revelation means to reveal to how could it be a contemporary of John, who most believed wrote Revelation?<<
You: ALLusion. Please don't think I meant ILLusion. I mentioned the prophet separately because in his case the futuristic sense of the prophecy may also have come to pass. But if Mohammed was the futuristic sense of the prophecy, that means there may have been someone who was contemporary to John, since Mohammed was not. I can only speculate who that might be. The epistles of John do suggest that John was battling someone who denied the Resurrection while claiming to be a Christian.
Me: I am having difficulty getting a handle on what you are saying ... which prophecy are you now referring to - "which may have come to pass" ... also I disagree that John was talking about a comtemporary. Can you better explain that since it doesn't fit in at all with the purpose of Revelation. I am lost as to who you are referring to here:
"The epistles of John do suggest that John was battling someone who denied the Resurrection while claiming to be a Christian."
I don't see that anywhere in Revelation. Could you elaborate with a passage reference?
Me: Maybe you had better reveal the four primary evil characters you see in Revelation and I'll take it from there with questions.<<
You: The four evil characters: The serpent (both manifestations counted as one character), the beast, the prophet and the whore.
Me: They are represent Satan in different forms.
Me: Well yes in the broad definition, anti Christ can be more than one person but in Revelation you and I seem to disagree.<<
You: This is why I keep asking who in Revelations do you suppose the anti-Christ is.
Me: Neither you or I know. It's a mystery. Satan doesn't act alone hence the various forms.
Me:I'm just looking for the verse and the character you believe it is.<<
You: There is no single verse; I'm surveying all of Revelations to come up with those four evil persons; that's my point: the anti-Christ is in no verse of Revelations
Me: THe point is that the anti Christ has many followers and he has many forms however the ultimate anti Christ according to the Bible appears to be this:
Rev. 20:1-3
1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
If there were MORE than ONE anti Christ wouldn't God offer him/her the same accomodations?
I think so !
You're interesting ... otoh you appear to oppose this Zoro theory yet you promote it in your replies.
Again, I implore you to look at your premise - that Zoro is older than the Bible. This is FALSE. The Bible is the ONE you can count on and it doesn't include Zoro prophecy.
Generally speaking their is little commonality to the Bible: