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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
SD
And I suppose:1 Peter 5:7 "...casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you."is a call to everyone as well.
As Peter is writing his letter to the church, ... I would say no.
Conversely, ... Jesus is preaching to the multitudes.
God doesn't choose one for damnation. We're already damned. This point seems to be lost.
"Do you think all of the elect are prophets, selected in the womb?
The elect are not prophets nor is everyone filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. But we know from Romans 8 that God foreknew and predestined His own before the foundations of the world. So God knows His sheep.
Since you, SD, believe that God "prods" people along you must also believe there are people whose hearts He's hardened who God plans on throwing into Hell. This is NOT my position.
I sing that song.
REAL love is desiring the lost to be saved. That love is not compromising , it is hard truth telling. Hear Peter being filled with the Holy Ghost
Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.
Act 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Act 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
If not, how did they come to exist outside of God's sovereign will?
The elect are not prophets nor is everyone filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb.
Then there is somethign different about J the B and Jeremiah. God acted differently for them.
Since you, SD, believe that God "prods" people along you must also believe there are people whose hearts He's hardened who God plans on throwing into Hell. This is NOT my position.
God prods. He does nto compell. That is your position, that God decided beforehand everything. God made Pharoah unreceptive to His people, but it was ultimately Pharoah's decision.
It is the person who believes in a total depravity that must explain how God's sovereignity does not make Him responsible for damnation.
SD
If God has "predetermined" the "elect" (and thus by elimination the "non-elect"), what exactly is being desired here? That God had chosen differently?
How is this not a futile desire, if everything is "foreordained"?
The men walking in darkness were never intended to know He was the Christ, God incarnate . As he told Peter , Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
But Jesus clearly revealed Himself to one that already knew He was God....Satan
Mat 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in [their] hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
This was a clear declaration that indeed He is the lord our God
I did not hold her hand and tell all was fine when the wolves in sheep's clothing raided the hen house .
Does God owe them this desire?
And you say I'm inconsistent?
God owes nobody nothing.
Is this your ultimate fallback position? That God makes people with no chance for salvation, creates them with no capacity to do good and without even an inkling that they should desire to yearn for grace and renewal? And that because they act out on their nature it is "just" to punish them with eternal torment? Even thought everything they do is exactly what God wants them to do?
I don't believe that is consistent with a just and merciful God.
SD
I like you quester , always have... but it there is an apology due it is from you
Sorry. You might claim having this love. But talk is cheap.
And you say I'm inconsistent?
God prods. God sways. God does not decide. My wording could have been better. God gave Pharaoh a pre-disposition to ignoring the Chosen People.
SD
It is the person who believes in a total depravity that must explain how God's sovereignity does not make Him responsible for damnation.
Unless you want to deny the Omniscience of God then you have the same "problem" to answer. If God knew who would and would not be saved, or however you want to say it, and created the world anyway....then who, really, is doing what God did not intend for them to do?
Well, not really. I don't try to present a completely fogured out system. I acknowledge there is mystery involved. Involving how our free will works out to acheive God's goals.
What I do not do is deny that we have a free will. Everyone I believe God puts in hell has made free, truly free choices that have resulted in that.
I believe God somehow allows us to be truly free. I can't explain it. But to make God the decider of everything is to make God responsible for sin and death and for the unjust damnatino of people who are only doing God's will and being the creatures God made them to be.
If God knew who would and would not be saved, or however you want to say it, and created the world anyway....then who, really, is doing what God did not intend for them to do?
It's simply a different perspective. To make God's will the overriding principle is to rob all of us of any responsibility. If you would only admit that men have a capacity to do good or evil, than your problems would go away.
SD
Coffee spewing all over the key board..You are a funny man
I cna be predisposed for heart disease, but if I do certain things I might live a long and healthy life.
If I am pre-destined for a heart attack, there is nothign I can do.
Jews, obviously, are capable of becoming Christians. So it is not predestined that none of them will. But htere is a strong enough predisposition that there will always be a chosen People.
SD
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