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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I don't think his unique situation can be generalized to all mankind.
He was obviously not given the "choice" of his moral will.
Jeremiah's was an "immaculate conception"? He was incapable of sin?
The problem with the "free will" approach is that it relies upon individuals hearing the "message" and making informed decisions. What happens to those who, for whatever the reason, are not afforded the opportunity to make that decision? Or about the hardening of Israel's heart until the fullness of the Gentiles mentioned in Romans 11 is complete?
Is it any more just of an all powerful God not using this power to have every single person hear the message and make an informed decision?
I've noticed most people think of God's sovereignty as an attribute like love or mercy. It is not. It is God's position. God is our Father and is in control just like my father was in control when I was growing up. My father might have been loving, just, and so forth but these are attributes or characteristics.
While I tend to focus on God's sovereigty (which is God's position), God is also love, mercy, grace, just, etc (attributes). I am confident in the fact that those God want saved will be saved despite our failures because God is in control; fairly, justly, and equably according to His divine nature. The rational for why God does what He does is unknown to us.
Point of order. Even Mary was capable of sin. She had a free will.
Likewise, John the Baptist was freed from original sin while in the womb, but he did not live a sinless life.
SD
The problem with the "free will" approach is that it relies upon individuals hearing the "message" and making informed decisions. What happens to those who, for whatever the reason, are not afforded the opportunity to make that decision?
What about it? Do you think no rule can have exceptions for circumstances? God doesn't expect a baby to profess or act like he expects an adult to. This doesn't mean an adult can act like a baby. People who are capable of exercising their wills are responsible for the choices they make. Children and those mentally handicapped are not.
This isn't rocket science.
sD
Thanks for the frank admission.
SD
I don't believe God works any different for one person than for another.
You left of verse 27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."
The verses you refer to refers to our Lord Jesus' instructions to His believers.
Jesus qualifies His invitation thusly ...Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.In like manner to these statements of Jesus ...John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
3,907 posted on 04/13/2004 11:15:16 AM EDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: SoothingDave
But you've neglected explaining why God would harden someone's heart so they would not hear the message.
Right in a row? Which side are you arguing?
Does God work the same for all people or does He harden some of them so they won't hear Him?
For your question, it was a tangential point to your original point. Obviously God does not keep each individual Jew from becoming a Christian. This only mean that there will still be an Israel, distinct, until the end of time. It doesn't mean individual Jews have no choice in accepting the Good News.
SD
1. top authority: supreme authority, especially over a state
No problem.
It means "all (those who will by my previous decision repent) ye that labor..."
SD
No, because the non-Elect will not reach for it. So it's not a matter of God withholding from the non-Elect something for which they are yearning.
Except for the desire to yearn.
SD
And I suppose:
1 Peter 5:7 "...casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you."
is a call to everyone as well.
You apparently can't see your own contradictions. You say God doesn't make exceptions and then you say how God chooses one for damnation and one for salvation. And then you go on about Jeremiah.
Do you think all of the elect are prophets, selected in the womb?
No one ever answers why God would harden someone's heart (except a Calvinist).
Not true. I said God prods people to move history along. You are the one who insists that God does not treat people differently, even though He does, but He doesn't except when He does.
Do the reprobate deserve hell for doing exactly what God wants them to do?
SD
1 Peter 5:7 "...casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you."
is a call to everyone as well.
Yes!
If Jesus called upon us to love our enemies, why do you think God should be held to a lesser standard?
SD
Isn't that beautiful? We are a love gift. The Father elects and then draws us to the Son , then Son saves us and returns us to the Father .
We weren't debating Calvinism... Yes, their faith was a gift, otherwise they would ahve reason for boasting.
Yep ...
The word truism was first used in post 2999. Perhaps tautology would have been a more precise word, as in "Tautologies should not be dismissed simply because they are tautologies." I hope my follow-on use of the word truism instead of tautology will not obscure the point of post 3899.
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