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Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
That's the point, isn't it? Can God use other "pagan" forms of spiritual experience in order to prepare a people or a person for accepting the true God?
Think about it. Pre-Christian pagan tales of virgin-born gods and resurrected saviors are either a preperation for the truth or evidence that Christianity is just a made-up re-hash of older pagan myth.
SD
I believe I said "without a doubt because I get points for putting up with YOU". Which really isn't the same thing as falling for the error of OSAS.
And no. You DON'T need to believe in OSAS to "know you're going to heaven" unless you equate "going to heaven" with OSAS. And again you mis-state the church's position on the matter. You simply can't believe that there is no way to fall away. You can have absolute security in the fact that Christ has done His work and the He will remain faithfull. You just can't know whether you will compelte the race.
I know all this is hard for you (not an insult - a ) but you're stuck with Steven being a liar and you miss-"sensing" (or whatever the heck the spirit gives you to identify another brother in Christ) him.
I have no such stumbling block.
You hypocrite! The Catholic church you claim to follow teaches if you claim that you KNOW your saved you are cursed and dammed.
Uh, no it doesn't.
Spin it anyway you want but thats what you posted, and the always on guard SoothingDave blew right by hoping no one would notice.
Actually, I had assumed he was fresh out of confession and had not committed any mortal sins. It's called being in a state of grace.
SD
Steven is not lying now and he wasn't lying then. He simply changed.
And the OSAS people have been clear, when questioned, that the only one whose salvation they can be assured of is their own. They can tell a thired party "if you're truly saved, you'll never lose it" but they can't judge another.
There is still much problematic with the theory, but this isn't one of them.
SD
If it seems like a game to you, take a hard look at some of Iggy's posts at the time of his "prior conversion" to messianic-judaism last year. Iggy was ecstatic with all the shock he generated. You'd think he did it just to get attention - and now that said attention has died off, he's out to have a conversion experience again. It's like this is a game to him. If anyone's not taking this seriously, it's Iggy himself.
Prove me wrong, Iggy. I think you'll be converting again before the year's out. Next time it'll be along the lines of herbalism, spiritualism and magic. And remember, I predicted it first.
The cavalry has been here since Iggy's original announcement last year - even if individually each of us were not present on the forum. BigMack, for all his convictions about Calvinism, pinged the FR Calvinists to come to his aide with Iggy. Iggy's shown himself time and again to be uninterested in a serious examination of his beliefs, even when conducted by online friends (like BigMack) and assisted by others (like the FR Calvinists). He's not searching for truth. He's running away from it. I'd wager that even "Bruce of TOMY" himself (the uncredited author of Iggy's previously messianic-toraic FR diatribes) would probably reject Iggy's current beliefs at this point.
On the other hand, Calvary itself has been present, since the beginning of time, waiting for Iggy with open arms. And continues to be. Isaiah spoke of us in this way: "All of us like sheep have gone astray" (53:6). Iggy's always been astray, and his "quest for truth" simply shows that he hasn't found it. He's just decided to take the SheepMobile down a different alley, that's all.
Well put. I'm just glad he's out of that indefensible middle ground.
SD
Rejection of God is quite another. Within OSAS you either DO believe that Jesus is who He IS, or you were NEVER "saved".
Will a saved person have doubts? Almost certainly. Sin? Yep. Become "less religious" almost to the point of agnosticism? It could happen. Every REALLY believe "Jesus Christ is NOT God"? I think it's possible, you shouldn't.
"Who" or "what" then do you suppose you had a "relationship" with? Or was it all in your head?
Question for Kevin and IMRight...
Do Catholics have a "relationship" with Mary? Or is it all in their heads?
Sorry we never made it out there. You heading to NC for any "biker events" or something? Whole bunch of Harley's heading East with us on I20 for awhile there.
I'm pretty sure it was Texas.
I guess (from the logical framework we were building from) that depends on whether she "exists". AND whether there is a relationship to be had if she DOES exist (e.g. if it's impossible to communicate either way because she is dead).
I had originally typed "kabbalism", but my foray through FR's spellchecker must have accidentally changed that. Leave it to FR to take some of the wind out of my sails.
Hum de dum. Still waiting for you to tell me if you were born a Calvinist, or converted somewhere along the way.
Actually, I've been a Calvinist since before my birth. And I didn't convert - the decision was never mine to make :)
...I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. - Deuteronomy 18:15,18-19
The operative words in these verses are PROPHET! YHWH would raise a PROPHET amidst them, NOT a second-god, nor a god-man, or demi-god or sun-god.
Yehoshua said that he was a prophet.
Matthew 13
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
Luke 13
33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem
PROPHET. Yehoshua was a prophet and he told people what to do. To repent and keep the commandments, and according to the second portion that you posted, YHWH will require it of people that do not listen to what the prophet Yehoshua speaks in YHWH's name. (repent and keep the commandments)
Selah! (think about it)
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