[drstevej]

This collection of relics, collected by Elector Frederick and catalogued by Lucas Cranach, supposedly offered the pilgrim a potential 1,902,202 days of indulgence (Hillerbrand, p. 18).

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[Gamecock]

What?

What about the most important relic?

[drstevej]

Jude24: You said, on another thread...

***Using a medieval superstition (which I doubt was ever official Catholic dogma, and probably very few still believe it anymore) to try to discredit Catholicism is a cheap shot, and doesn't really prove anything.***

Perhaps this thread is a better place to discuss the issue of relics. The topic was certainly not irrelevant to the beginning of the Reformation. Indeed, many of Luther's 95 Theses [1517] address what he believed to be abuses of relics and indulgences. This concern led to a biblical reassessment of the myriad of religious practices that surrounded him.

Perhaps the particular relic(s) of the Holy Prepuce is not in vogue today, but the issue or relics is hardly moot. The plethora of relics and aparitions are "devotions" which are no less and issue between Protestants and Catholics then as now.

As Protestants we affirm Sola Scriptura and reject "Holy Tradition" which brings with it the superstition of aparitions and relic veneration.

[drstevej]

While in Rome in 1974 I saw the Scala Sancta (Holy Stairs)
Consisting of twenty-eight white marble steps which according to tradition was the staircase leading once to the prætorium of Pilate at Jerusalem. The Catholic Encyclopedia says they were sanctified by the footsteps of Our Lord during his Passion.

I saw an elderly lady on all fours ascending the stairs slowly kissing the steps. I do not know what was in her mind and heart, she certainly looked sincere. I was reminded of another incident many years prior...

"An errand to Rome shook [Luther] further. He did not notice the glories of the Renaissance or the reminders of antiquity: instead, he saw the worldliness and levity of the clergy, both high and low. He climbed the Scala Sancta, 28 stairs, with a Pater Noster and a kiss on each in order to release a soul from purgatory, and at the top he found his faith in the indulgence clouded by doubt."

http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc2/lectures/luther...html

[Desdemona]

Two pieces of the cloth which St Veronica received from the Lord.

Uh, Veronica was canonized? She wiped His face and the imprint of his face was left on it (that's tradition with a capital T). That's one piece of cloth and if I'm not mistaken it disappeared.

Steve, the sacred relics are things like the Crown of Thorns which is at Notre Dame in Paris. The Cathedral here has a piece of the True Cross and a relic of St. Louis, King of France. They aren't worshiped, but they are tangible connections to the past. Collections like the one you describe are not normal, but they are the result of quests of true faith.

Apparitions are a different kettle of fish. There are enough reports of them and enough miracles involved to make their existence real. It just hasn't happen to you. Me neither. That doesn't mean they aren't real. Anything is possible with God.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Here again I see the words "supposedly" and "probably". Where are these alleged relics? Why aren't they under lock and key? If any of these alleged relics were real the Vatican would have taken them away for safe keeping.

St. Helena had a vision of where the Cross of Christ was buried. She made a pilgrimage there and indeed found a large wooden cross buried. The sick who touched the relic were immediately cured of their illnesses. The Cross was taken back to the Vatican where it is today under lock and key. Few know the actual location as prevention against theft. Periodically the relic is taken out and tiny splinters are removed and placed in metal crucifixes. These are extremely difficult to obtain and are mostly given to exorcists to assist them in their work and Churches for veneration.

Again, I know nothing of these alleged relics. If they were real they would not be sitting in a Church in Germany and certainly not lost.

What's with the current jihad against Catholics? Don't you have a sermon to prepare for tomorrow?

[MizRiz9]

I think this thread was intended to be a discussion on relics. Now, it looks like it is turning into an anti Luther page...

First off Cunningham -- I am a Lutheran -- just to let you know from the start.

Secondly Deborah -- Attributing Luther's sometimes odd beliefs (I submit his pamphlet --"The Jews and their Lies") to all Protestants is wrong. I think the problem here is that many Christians of the Roman Denomination think Luther is the Protestant Pope or we worship Luther and his works. This is just not so.

However, to come to his defense we must remember we are talking about a 16th Century man here. Although I am not one for Historical Critical Theology I think that when it comes down to men we must consider the times they lived in. If you read further about Luther's bigamy statements you would also find that because divorce was unthinkable at the time Luther reasoned that a woman who found herself in a sexless marriage could, with the consent of her husband, have a "secret marriage" with say a brother-in-law. Now, we must also remember that this was probably not because of the woman's "right" to have sex. It was probably because married women were expected to have children. Therefore it is a lot like Lot's daughters laying down with their father to ensure his "line". Or the tradition from the Old Testament that if a Woman becomes a widow, before she bears children, she is to marry her husbands next of kin....

Now, to address the relics issue. Although I do not own them or use them myself I really don't see a problem with other people having them if they enhance a worship experience. But I do have a problem with them being the object of worship and not God.

For instance when I was in Rome I found a rather large group of Philippina nuns prostrate before the jewel encrusted arm of a saint. I may be wrong but I really got the feeling that they were worshiping the arm and not God. Which then led me to think about Lenin's body laid out in Red Square and why it was there. Let us not replace the spiritual with the material.

In closing, I don't think Christians and I mean all Christians -- Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant -- should be fighting among themselves right now. We have a much more serious fight before us and we need to be together.

[Catholicguy]

Less than a year before the Heresiarch lost his faith, Luther was preaching Indulgences.

Now, the misuse of Indulgences or fake relics do not render those truths nugatory.

X. INDULGENCES 1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.83

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God's grace is not alone. "The life of each of God's children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person."86

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things."87 In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church's treasury, which is "not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the 'treasury of the Church' is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ's merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy."88

1477 "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."89

Obtaining indulgence from God through the Church

1478 An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.90

1479 Since the faithful departed now being purified are also members of the same communion of saints, one way we can help them is to obtain indulgences for them, so that the temporal punishments due for their sins may be remitted.

81 Paul VI, apostolic constitution, Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 1.

82 Indulgentiarum doctrina, Norm 2; Cf. Norm 3.

83 CIC, can. 994.

84 Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.

85 Eph 4:22, 24.

86 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.

87 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.

88 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.

89 Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.

90 Cf. Indulgentiarum doctrina, 5.

DECREE CONCERNING INDULGENCES. Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly.

[Catholicguy]

ON THE INVOCATION, VENERATION, AND RELICS, OF SAlNTS, AND ON SACRED IMAGES.

The holy Synod enjoins on all bishops, and others who sustain the office and charge of teaching, that, agreeably to the usage of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, received from the primitive times of the Christian religion, and agreeably to the consent of the holy Fathers, and to the decrees of sacred Councils, they especially instruct the faithful diligently concerning the intercession and invocation of saints; the honour (paid) to relics; and the legitimate use of images: teaching them, that the saints, who reign together with Christ, offer up their own prayers to God for men; that it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them, and to have recourse to their prayers, aid, (and) help for obtaining benefits from God, through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who is our alone Redeemer and Saviour; but that they think impiously, who deny that the saints, who enjoy eternal happiness in heaven, are to be invocated; or who assert either that they do not pray for men; or, that the invocation of them to pray for each of us even in particular, is idolatry; or, that it is repugnant to the word of God; and is opposed to the honour of the one mediator of God and men, Christ Jesus; or, that it is foolish to supplicate, vocally, or mentally, those who reign in heaven. Also, that the holy bodies of holy martyrs, and of others now living with Christ,-which bodies were the living members of Christ, and the temple of the Holy Ghost, and which are by Him to be raised unto eternal life, and to be glorified,--are to be venerated by the faithful; through which (bodies) many benefits are bestowed by God on men; so that they who affirm that veneration and honour are not due to the relics of saints; or, that these, and other sacred monuments, are uselessly honoured by the faithful; and that the places dedicated to the memories of the saints are in vain visited with the view of obtaining their aid; are wholly to be condemned, as the Church has already long since condemned, and now also condemns them.

Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints, are to be had and retained particularly in temples, and that due honour and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity, or virtue, is believed to be in them, on account of which they are to be worshipped; or that anything is to be asked of them; or, that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old done by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honour which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which those images represent; in such wise that by the images which we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear: as, by the decrees of Councils, and especially of the second Synod of Nicaea, has been defined against the opponents of images.

And the bishops shall carefully teach this,-that, by means of the histories of the mysteries of our Redemption, portrayed by paintings or other representations, the people is instructed, and confirmed in (the habit of) remembering, and continually revolving in mind the articles of faith; as also that great profit is derived from all sacred images, not only because the people are thereby admonished of the benefits and gifts bestowed upon them by Christ, but also because the miracles which God has performed by means of the saints, and their salutary examples, are set before the eyes of the faithful; that so they may give God thanks for those things; may order their own lives and manners in imitation of the saints; and may be excited to adore and love God, and to cultivate piety. But if any one shall teach, or entertain sentiments, contrary to these decrees; let him be anathema.

And if any abuses have crept in amongst these holy and salutary observances, the holy Synod ardently desires that they be utterly abolished; in such wise that no images, (suggestive) of false doctrine, and furnishing occasion of dangerous error to the uneducated, be set up. And if at times, when expedient for the unlettered people; it happen that the facts and narratives of sacred Scripture are portrayed and represented; the people shall be taught, that not thereby is the Divinity represented, as though it could be seen by the eyes of the body, or be portrayed by colours or figures.

Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished; finally, all lasciviousness be avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust; nor the celebration of the saints, and the visitation of relics be by any perverted into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.

In fine, let so great care and diligence be used herein by bishops, as that there be nothing seen that is disorderly, or that is unbecomingly or confusedly arranged, nothing that is profane, nothing indecorous, seeing that holiness becometh the house of God.

And that these things may be the more faithfully observed, the holy Synod ordains, that no one be allowed to place, or cause to be placed, any unusual image, in any place, or church, howsoever exempted, except that image have been approved of by the bishop: also, that no new miracles are to be acknowledged, or new relics recognised, unless the said bishop has taken cognizance and approved thereof; who, as soon as he has obtained some certain information in regard to these matters, shall, after having taken the advice of theologians, and of other pious men, act therein as he shall judge to be consonant with truth and piety. But if any doubtful, or difficult abuse has to be extirpated; or, in fine, if any more grave question shall arise touching these matters, the bishop, before deciding the controversy, shall await the sentence of the metropolitan and of the bishops of the province, in a provincial Council; yet so, that nothing new, or that previously has not been usual in the Church, shall be resolved on, without having first consulted the most holy Roman Pontiff.

<>End of quote<>

Exodus 7:10 When Pharao shall say to you, Shew signs; thou shalt say to Aaron: Take thy rod, and cast it down before Pharao, and it shall be turned into a serpent.

Matt 9:20 And behold a woman who was troubled with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment.

21 For she said within herself: If I shall touch only his garment, I shall be healed.

Matt 14:36 And they besought him that they might touch but the hem of his garment. And as many as touched, were made whole.

Acts 19:12 So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons: and the diseases departed from them: and the wicked spirits went out of them.

Acts 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that, when Peter came, his shadow at the least might overshadow any of them and they might be delivered from their infirmities.

16 And there came also together to Jerusalem a multitude out of the neighbouring cities, bringing sick persons and such as were troubled with unclean spirits: who were all healed.

[Gotterdammerung]

So, when are you going to become Catholic???

[White Mountain]

Since the thread we were on has been flamed so it would get moved to the back room (plus an even worse, and very vulgar, natural-woman FRmail to me from the same poster), I reply to you here.

Your #201: So that's all it takes, huh?

If you were Jewish, challenging something Jesus said in the New Testament, I would say the same thing. It is all about Scripture that actually is the Word of God, but you do not yet accept it as such. You should inquire of the Lord concerning it, that you may know for yourself and not take my word for it.

Sometimes as the still small voice bears witness, people do not recognize it for what it is. Only later do they realize that the Holy Spirit has been witnessing to them for some time, as in the following:

Luke 24:30-33
30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

1 Kings 19:11-12
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Other times people say they were called many times but they would not hear.

[Elsie]

...and a partridge in a pear tree!

[Campion]

Steve, I don't think this sort of thread really helps anyone to live a holier, more Christ-centered life.

Everyone -- Catholic or otherwise -- agrees that there were all sorts of abuses, oddities, wickedness, and general goofy flakiness running around in late-medieval Catholicism. St. Thomas More and Erasmus together mocked the bizarre cult of relics in London, for example. Luther thought he needed a schism to fix the problem. The Church ended up having an ecumenical council, Trent, to fix the problem. You can claim, if you wish, that they didn't get the job done, but the fact remains that post-Tridentine Catholicism is not the same beast [pun intended] as the Catholicism in which Luther grew to manhood.

Moreover, there are no late-medieval Catholics on FR. Not one! So (although some Protestants seem to be permanently stuck in 1517, and may have trouble believing this) you're bringing up stuff that is at least peripherally foreign to most of us, and even essentially foreign to some of us.

Believe it or not, relic-veneration is not a central element of modern Catholic practice. It's really pretty peripheral. We have a relic in our house, but the essence of our domestic spirituality with our kids consists of the Divine Office, which is mostly Bible reading and prayers of petition, and getting to Mass on Sundays.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see that this thread accomplishes anything except sowing dissension and causing food-fights. I don't like threads like that when Catholics start them, either, and I think you can do better.

[Fester Chugabrew]

One piece of the stone from which Christ descended into heaven.

Something is just not right here.