White-Collar Exodus

ABC News ^ | July 29, 2003 | Betsy Stark

[RockyMtnMan]

Michael Emmons thought he knew how to keep a job as a software programmer.

"You have to continue to keep yourself up to speed," he said. "If you don't, you'll get washed out."

Up to speed or not, Emmons wound up being "washed out" anyway. Last summer, he moved his family from California to Florida for the Siemens Co., makers of electronics and equipment for industries. Not long after, Emmons and 19 other programmers were replaced by cheaper foreign workers.

Adding insult to injury, Emmons and the others had to train their replacements.

"It was the most demoralizing thing I've ever been through," he told ABCNEWS. "After spending all this time in this industry and working to keep my skills up-to-date, I had to now teach foreign workers how to do my job so they could lay me off."

Just as millions of American manufacturing jobs were lost in the 1980s and 1990s, today white-collar American jobs are disappearing. Foreign nationals on special work visas are filling some positions but most jobs are simply contracted out overseas.

"The train has left the station, the cows have left the barn, the toothpaste is out of the tube," said John McCarthy, director of research at Forrester Research, who has studied the exodus of white-collar jobs overseas. "However you want to talk about it, you're not going to turn the tide on this in the same way we couldn't turn the tide on the manufacturing shift."

India Calling

Almost 500,000 white-collar American jobs have already found their way offshore, to the Philippines, Malaysia and China. Russia and Eastern Europe are expected to be next. But no country has captured more American jobs than India.

In Bangalore, India, reservation agents are booking flights for Delta; Indian accountants are preparing tax returns for Ernst & Young; and Indian software engineers are developing new products for Oracle.

They are all working at a fraction of the cost these companies would pay American workers.

For example, American computer programmers earn about $60,000, while their Indian counterparts only make $6,000.

"It's about cost savings," said Atul Vashistha, CEO of NeoIT, a California-based consulting company that advises American firms interested in "offshoring" jobs previously held by Americans. "They need to significantly reduce their cost of doing business and that's why they're coming to us right now."

Vivek Pal, an Indian contractor for technology consulting group Wipro, whose clients include Microsoft, GE, JP Morgan Chase, and Best Buy, is hiring 2,000 Indian workers quarterly to keep up with demand. Pal knows American workers resent the "offshoring" trend but says all Americans will benefit in the long run.

"Globalization — whether it's for products or services — may feel like it hurts, but at the end of the day, it creates economic value all around," said Pal.

At the end of the day, Emmons has a different view: "If you sit at a desk, beware," he said. "Your job is going overseas."

[Doohickey]

Buys by newly offshored Indian traders, no doubt.

Still, it has nothing to do with companies passing the benefits of offshoring to their customers or communities.

[Agamemnon]

The differnce between us is that you think you are a better human being than everyone else out there, and I know better.

No Andy, it just shows everyone what intensely bitter persons you and Laz are.

I just happen to believe in the ability of those "98%" of other Americans more than you happen to.

What ever will they do without your compassion? It is your philosophy that does them the greater dis-service, the poor dears. Most Americans just can't seem to get enough of a handle on their own lives, can they? And without your "be warmed and filled" platitudinous sense of encouragement, where ever will they be?

The "pillars" are those "who just want to do their day's job and go home and take care of family and friends and neighborhoods and little league teams and all the rest that keeps our contry running." OK. And you are not one of them? "I am not one of those folks...."

Too good for "those folks" are you? They are all probably just as glad that you are not one of them either. After all, what have YOU ever done to better the lives of those pillars who you have chosen to term, "those folks," hmm? Spare them your charity. It may make you feel better, but I honestly don't think they'll need it.

So who's the egalitarian elitist now? It is just too easy to eat the lunch of people with non-existant debating skills like yours.

If 98% of Americans are the way you think of them, they probably wouldn't recognize their own ancestors who came here in the first place -- where those folks in your own ancestry are concerned, I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't recognize them either. But for the other 98% of Americans I just don't happen to believe that

But then again, if they accomplished something more than you think they are capable of, where will that leave you and ol' Laz except that you'd both probably both just be in their review mirrors eating their dust?

And here we were wondering where the Democrats were getting their politics of envy message from. They can look no further than this thread on FR and your postings.

[Marauder]

Of course there is not a shortage of IT workers in the U.S. So why does Congressman Kirk say there is?

You're asking why a politician either is misinformed, uninformed, or lies?

I've said it before, here I go again: We have the government we deserve, because we collectively refuse to limit their terms the way they should be limited, by throwing them out of office. People should not be allowed to make politics their career; it impacts their basic honesty.

[garbanzo]

should hasten to add that the American consumer also makes no distinction anymore as to whether or not a product is manufactured in the USA.

I'd also add that if the American consumer pays little attention to the "Made In USA" labels then foreign consumers couldn't care less. Brazilian consumers aren't going to pay a 10% premium on American-made items to keep Americans at work.

[Lazamataz]

Not to be too snarky here, but do I detect a difficulty with uncertainty - a strong need for closure?

Yeah, that's probably in my personality profile. I'm not a big fan of uncertainty. I don't like gambling money at all, for example. I don't do extreme sports. Most of my recreation revolves around self-defense -- martial arts and weightlifting lately, as well as firearms expertise. I like security and regular routines.

Now, hopefully you won't pull an "Agamemnon" and preach to me that this makes me some sort of loser who needs to crawl out from behind his rock or something. ;^)

[MrNatural]

..but do I detect a difficulty with uncertainty..

Actually, one could make a case that that was your problem. Your refusal to see there can be more wrong here than
just not having the spirit of independance, or whatever, tells me that you don't want to have to live in a world that
can leave you stranded without a livelihood in spite of all your efforts.

The certainty you cling to is that you will always be OK because you are "open to possiblities"

[garbanzo]

Still, it has nothing to do with companies passing the benefits of offshoring to their customers or communities.

They are passing them to their shareholders however.

[Agamemnon]

and I never got around to getting my electrician's license.

OK and who's fault was that?

Like I've often said: those who make their own time generally make their own breaks.

Let the Chinese and the Indians crank out all the grads they want. Gotta have something more than just education though. Gotta get it from the lab to a product that someone actually wants to buy.

For what its worth, most accomplished Chinese and Indians in my line of work aren't hiring Chinese and Indians, mainly because of what they see as cultural biases contrary to American ingenuity and thinking "outsde the box." Their cultural mental blocks hold their otherwise intelligent countrymen back.

Education without freedom to produce innovative technology of value produces nothing in the long run. It's self-dilusional and struggles against self-erected and theoretical contrivances.

How's that saying go: those that can, do, those that can't are perpetual students of those that can't.

They'll probably tell you they've never heard of failure, either.

[Helms]

And also remember the old saying that it’s not what you say but how you say it. This we will not know until we can send and receive voice files instead of crude text. And even at that it will be difficult.

Why not call this the Great 21st Debate?

An economic and cultural upheaval on a par with the industrial revolution and its aftermath and brought on by the digital telecommunications revolution.

And/Or

Worldwide capitalism and the selling out of America’s moral and institutional hegemony and our birthright as US citizens.

More difficult yet are the lives of those who do not have the luxury of broadband and a safe home and neighborhood where crack addicts and social discards are not a problem. What we need is a more moral economy rather than a cultural economy based on the Marx, Gramerci, etc.

There is no need to refer to Greek mythology or attempts at gaining an upper hand in debate by the use of classical Greek figures largely invented by the human mind during its attempts to grapple with reality or at the real dawn of human history or to ask which Greek figure tried to tame the sea. . Sadly for Agamemnon and others this is no longer taught at most Ivy League institutions or liberal arts schools.

We have been failed by those same institutions in their graduate MBA programs whose purpose is to take those of more fortunate by dint of circumstance, heredity and just plane chance and make an enlightened society. Instead we have a Postmodern, passively nihilistic society caught up in celebrity worship and marketing to the lowest common denominator. Just turn on the damned TV.

As a current resident of North Carolina and near a Research Triangle Park (small Silicon valley) and a former resident of Pittsburgh Penna., I wish to think that I have some credibility to offer. As a boomer, may I also add that I am very dissapointed by the self-indulgent selling out and opting in of many of my generational counterparts?

In addition to castigating the Ivory Towers turning out weak capitalists and social nihilists, what of our elected officials? I’m giving Bush a pass right now as he has bigger fish to fry, but I know we have a weak Governor and since when do states by themselves abdicate economic responsibilities? I don’t want GWB saying jobs but rather careers and good stable employment.

There are a lot of good people on FR discussing this issue and make no mistake about it, technology is propelling us to unforeseen places. Sad thing is that we need to take responsibility as human beings to look out for other human beings. Darwin believed in natural selection yet believed mankind could transcend these forces. The project of started by the Enlightenment has been stymied by nihilistic Capitalism and as practiced so expertly by those of the Postmodern Liberal Intelligentsia whose vision of the future is that of Bladerunner or the Matrix.

[garbanzo]

Nah...I just heard a lot of hue and cry over someone doing a study of the personality profiles of conservatives. After 4 or 5 years on this site, it's interesting to see the comparisons between that study and what I've observed here.

[Agamemnon]

and I never got around to getting my electrician's license.

OK and who's fault was that?

Like I've often said: those who make their own time generally make their own breaks.

Let the Chinese and the Indians crank out all the grads they want. Gotta have something more than just education though. Gotta get it from the lab to a product that someone actually wants to buy. For what its worth, most accomplished Chinese and Indians in my line of work aren't hiring Chinese and Indians, mainly because of what they see as cultural biases contrary to American ingenuity and thinking "outsde the box" that holds their otherwise intelligent countrymen back.

Ever ask youself why Indians and Chinese have yet to invent something novel much beyond eye-glasses or Kama Sutra perhaps over the last, say, 5000 years?

Education without freedom to produce innovative technology of value produces nothing in the long run. It's self-dilusional and struggles against self-erected and theoretical contrivances.

How's that saying go: those that can, do, those that can't are perpetual students of those that can't.

They'll probably tell you they've never heard of failure, either.

[garbanzo]

Worldwide capitalism and the selling out of America’s moral and institutional hegemony and our birthright as US citizens.

Birthright?! Who set that up?

[Lazamataz]

Ease down, soldiers. :o) Garbanzo is no Agamemnon. I've dealt with him before, he's a reasonable fellow. Remember, not too long ago, I, too, was a Free Trader. It took this new offshoring phenomenon and the good arguments of fellow freepers -- plus a little research -- to finally understand that I might have been wrong all along.

If people had gotten personal and crappy with me, I might not have been as receptive to the idea that I had been wrong.

[Clemenza]

If worse comes to worse, I could always move to Costa Rica.

[RLK]

I have only one college course on economics. But from the beginning of the mass export of American jobs I wondered who would be the tax base.

----------------------------

You don't need a college course in economics, all you need is a brain. When you export people's jobs doncomplain when you then can't sell them automobiles or appliances or complain about the economy.

[Agamemnon]

I think your obsession warrants worry.

You know you can try to be cute one too many times there, Buckweat, but, much to your profound displeasure, I'm sure, the conversation did not continue in a scatological vein.

Why don't you go back to surfing what ever titillating coprophiliac/phagic web site you were on last, if that's where your mind prefers to reside.

This converstation won't bring you there unless you do it, of course, but may I remind you that you will likely only be talking to yourself, possibly to your navel, and to what ever else you may happen to be holding in your hand at the time.

[Helms]

I consider my birthright as a US citizen not to have the fruits of my US ancestors and our predecessors pimped off to London, Paris, Germany, Hong Kong, etc. We are each of us born into a shared culture which damned well developed IT. The assault on the US is in full swing.

Sorry if I came across a bit cocky on this one but this Thread has made me a bit steamed.

[Agamemnon]

...will last about one internet ping-time.

In you wildest dreams, maybe. How you would wish it to be so, too. Oh, how I'd hate to disappoint you, Andy! (/sarcasm off)

You think my client base doesn't know what's out there? C'mon, why do they keep calling me instead of them? Use your head.

Mine is a business model likely to survive far longer than your career at the rate you're going. Furthermore, unlike your career, where my business is concerned, it will be inheritable. Your career, at this time, likely will die with you, if not before.

Sure, it's a preventable "death." You'll just have to figure out a way to make it so. That's your job.

[stig]

BTW, if you were the owner of the company, wouldn't you try to cut the costs of your company, such as many people try to get the most bang out there buck, when they comparison shop.

Let's compare it more to a small business where you've hired your friends to work for you. Now are you going to fire them to hire some cheap 3rd world nimrod just to make a little more money per year?? I don't think so.

Now let's scale it up. Are you going to fire fellow American's just to hire some cheap 3rd world nimrod. The answer should be no. But somehow alot of MBAs without a creative bone in their body think it's just fine.

Something is certainly broken. I don't like the idea of a database with my financial information on it, is now under the control of a bunch of third world yahoos. I don't like the idea that when I call up an airline to make reservations I'm talking to someone in India. Now I do my best to buy American but some of this stuff is out of my control as a consumer. There isn't a company profile when I buy insurance for my car that indicates how much of the compant's work is done at overseas offices.

One more thing is that the Federal government IS supposed to regulate trade with foreign countries. So this is certainly something the Feds should be involved with. But controlling our borders is too and they do a sh*t job on that.

[Southack]

"I'm not exactly going nowhere. But I do see the trend. The trend is that the vast majority of people will be out of ALL work in the next 10 to 15 years. At that point, those people will be unable to purchase basic goods and services. Do you really want to see what happens when a society is denied basic services? Think: Russia 1918."

You are doing fine, Laz, and certainly going forward in life.

But do you really think that all jobs will be gone in 15 years?!

Look, IT has just gone through a boom and a bust. It was over-hyped in the beginning, and it's being pessimistically oversold in the present.

And while it is true that menial, repetitive jobs (be they in IT or in most anything else) **are** going to be mechanized and automated away, that's not cause for doom and gloom in my book.

We automated and mechanized farming, if you'll remember, and now we produce better food, safer, in larger numbers, at less cost, and with fewer people than ever before.

Certainly banning the automation of farming would have been a net negative for America 20 years down the road (picture 1930 to 1950).

True, lots of farmers lost their land and had to move on. True, they had to retrain and pick new careers (or adapt the better farming technology and make millions).

And you're going to see that self-same thing in IT. Just as farming has foreign competition, so too will IT. Just as farming was once the dominant profession, so too will the relative fall of IT be viewed in a similar light.

Are there still American farming innovations?! Of course! Will there still be American IT innovations?! Of course!

In fact, the foreign IT competition will force state, local, and perhaps even the federal government to reconsider their ponderous, onerous anti-business legislation (descrimination laws, anti-right to work union laws, pension funding laws, tort reform to rein in out of control lawsuits, EPA regulations, OSHA nonsense, et al).

The other side of the coin is that lots of so-called "high-tech" IT jobs were nothing of the sort. A code slinger putting together an order-entry web page ain't cutting edge, much less high tech. Ditto for system administrators installing software updates, checking for infections, and setting up new user accounts. It shouldn't really surprise anyone to see such jobs either being automated by robotic software and/or being outsourced to 3rd world grunts.

But innovative software, that's another story. Look at the game and utility markets. Plenty of entrepreneurial efforts from the little guy make it into the American system, and those guys are being handsomely rewarded. Why aren't we seeing Indian and Chinese programmers come out with such games and comercial utilities?! But we certainly see the Americans doing it, and I don't see that trend stopping.