The "Threat" of Creationism, by Isaac Asimov

Scientists thought it was settled. The universe, they had decided, is about 20 billion years old, and Earth itself is 4.5 billion years old. Simple forms of life came into being more than three billion years ago, having formed spontaneously from nonliving matter. They grew more complex through slow evolutionary processes and the first hominid ancestors of humanity appeared more than four million years ago. Homo sapians itself—the present human species, people like you and me—has walked the earth for at least 50,000 years.

But apparently it isn't settled. There are Americans who believe that the earth is only about 6,000 years old; that human beings and all other species were brought into existence by a divine Creator as eternally separate variations of beings; and that there has been no evolutionary process.

They are creationists—they call themselves "scientific" creationists—and they are a growing power in the land, demanding that schools be forced to teach their views. State legislatures, mindful of the votes, are beginning to succumb to the pressure. In perhaps 15 states, bills have been introduced, putting forth the creationist point of view, and in others, strong movements are gaining momentum. In Arkansas, a law requiring that the teaching of creationism receive equal time was passed this spring and is scheduled to go into effect in September 1982, though the American Civil Liberties Union has filed suit on behalf of a group of clergymen, teachers, and parents to overturn it. And a California father named Kelly Segraves, the director of the Creation-Science Research Center, sued to have public-school science classes taught that there are other theories of creation besides evolution, and that one of them was the Biblical version. The suit came to trial in March, and the judge ruled that educators must distribute a policy statement to schools and textbook publishers explaining that the theory of evolution should not be seen as "the ultimate cause of origins." Even in New York, the Board of Education has delayed since January in making a final decision, expected this month [June 1981], on whether schools will be required to include the teaching of creationism in their curriculums.

The Rev. Jerry Fallwell, the head of the Moral Majority, who supports the creationist view from his television pulpit, claims that he has 17 million to 25 million viewers (though Arbitron places the figure at a much more modest 1.6 million). But there are 66 electronic ministries which have a total audience of about 20 million. And in parts of the country where the Fundamentalists predominate—the so called Bible Belt— creationists are in the majority.

They make up a fervid and dedicated group, convinced beyond argument of both their rightness and their righteousness. Faced with an apathetic and falsely secure majority, smaller groups have used intense pressure and forceful campaigning—as the creationists do—and have succeeded in disrupting and taking over whole societies.

Yet, though creationists seem to accept the literal truth of the Biblical story of creation, this does not mean that all religious people are creationists. There are millions of Catholics, Protestants, and Jews who think of the Bible as a source of spiritual truth and accept much of it as symbolically rather than literally true. They do not consider the Bible to be a textbook of science, even in intent, and have no problem teaching evolution in their secular institutions.

To those who are trained in science, creationism seems like a bad dream, a sudden reveling of a nightmare, a renewed march of an army of the night risen to challenge free thought and enlightenment.

The scientific evidence for the age of the earth and for the evolutionary development of life seems overwhelming to scientists. How can anyone question it? What are the arguments the creationists use? What is the "science" that makes their views "scientific"? Here are some of them:

A watch implies a watchmaker, say the creationists. If you were to find a beautifully intricate watch in the desert, from habitation, you would be sure that it had been fashioned by human hands and somehow left it there. It would pass the bounds of credibility that it had simply formed, spontaneously, from the sands of the desert.

By analogy, then, if you consider humanity, life, Earth, and the universe, all infinitely more intricate than a watch, you can believe far less easily that it "just happened." It, too, like the watch, must have been fashioned, but by more-than-human hands—in short by a divine Creator.

This argument seems unanswerable, and it has been used (even though not often explicitly expressed) ever since the dawn of consciousness. To have explained to prescientific human beings that the wind and the rain and the sun follow the laws of nature and do so blindly and without a guiding would have been utterly unconvincing to them. In fact, it might have well gotten you stoned to death as a blasphemer.

There are many aspects of the universe that still cannot be explained satisfactorily by science; but ignorance only implies ignorance that may someday be conquered. To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

In short, the complexity of the universe—and one's inability to explain it in full—is not in itself an argument for a Creator.

Some creationists point at that belief in a Creator is general among all peoples and all cultures. Surly this unanimous craving hints at a greater truth. There would be no unanimous belief in a lie.

General belief, however, is not really surprising. Nearly every people on earth that considers the existence of the world assumes it to have been created by a god or gods. And each group invents full details for the story. No two creation tales are alike. The Greeks, the Norsemen, the Japanese, the Hindus, the American Indians, and so on and so on all have their own creation myths, and all of these are recognized by Americans of Judeo-Christian heritage as "just myths."

The ancient Hebrews also had a creation tale—two of them, in fact. There is a primitive Adam-and-Eve-in-Paradise story, with man created first, then animals, then women. There is also a poetic tale of God fashioning the universe in six days, with animals preceding man, and man and woman created together.

These Hebrew myths are not inherently more credible than any of the others, but they are our myths. General consent, of course, proves nothing: There can be a unanimous belief in something that isn't so. The universal opinion over thousands of years that the earth was flat never flattened its spherical shape by one inch.

Creationists frequently stress the fact that evolution is "only a theory," giving the impression that a theory is an idle guess. A scientist, one gathers, arising one morning with nothing particular to do, decided that perhaps the moon is made of Roquefort cheese and instantly advances the Roquefort-cheese theory.

A theory (as the word is used by scientists) is a detailed description of some facet of the universe's workings that is based on long observation and, where possible, experiment. It is the result of careful reasoning from these observations and experiments that has survived the critical study of scientists generally.

For example, we have the description of the cellular nature of living organisms (the "cell theory"); of objects attracting each other according to fixed rule (the "theory of gravitation"); of energy behaving in discrete bits (the "quantum theory"); of light traveling through a vacuum at a fixed measurable velocity (the "theory of relativity"), and so on.

All are theories; all are firmly founded; all are accepted as valid descriptions of this or that aspect of the universe. They are neither guesses nor speculations. And no theory is better founded, more closely examined, more critically argued and more thoroughly accepted, than the theory of evolution. If it is "only" a theory, that is all it has to be.

Creationism, on the other hand, is not a theory. There is no evidence, in the scientific sense, that supports it. Creationism, or at least the particular variety accepted by many Americans, is an expression of early Middle Eastern legend. It is fairly described as "only a myth."

Creationists, in recent years, have stressed the "scientific" background of their beliefs. They point out that there are scientists who base their creationists beliefs on a careful study of geology, paleontology, and biology and produce "textbooks" that embody those beliefs.

Virtually the whole scientific corpus of creationism, however, consists of the pointing out of imperfections in the evolutionary view. The creationists insists, for example, that evolutionists cannot true transition states between species in the fossil evidence; that age determinations through radioactive breakdown are uncertain; that alternative interpretations of this or that piece of evidence are possible and so on.

Because the evolutionary view is not perfect and is not agreed upon by all scientists, creationists argue that evolution is false and that scientists, in supporting evolution, are basing their views on blind faith and dogmatism.

To an extent, the creationists are right here: The details of evolution are not perfectly known. Scientists have been adjusting and modifying Charles Darwin's suggestions since he advanced his theory of the origin of species through natural selection back in 1859. After all, much has been learned about the fossil record and physiology, microbiology, biochemistry, ethology, and various other branches of life science in the last 125 years, and it was to be expected that we can improve on Darwin. In fact, we have improved on him. Nor is the process finished. it can never be, as long as human beings continue to question and to strive for better answers.

The details of evolutionary theory are in dispute precisely because scientists are not devotees of blind faith and dogmatism. They do not accept even as great thinker as Darwin without question, nor do they accept any idea, new or old, without thorough argument. Even after accepting an idea, they stand ready to overrule it, if appropriate new evidence arrives. If, however, we grant that a theory is imperfect and details remain in dispute, does that disprove the theory as a whole?

Consider. I drive a car, and you drive a car. I do not know exactly how an engine works. Perhaps you do not either. And it may be that our hazy and approximate ideas of the workings of an automobile are in conflict. Must we then conclude from this disagreement that an automobile does not run, or that it does not exist? Or, if our senses force us to conclude that an automobile does exist and run, does that mean it is pulled by an invisible horses, since our engine theory is imperfect?

However much scientists argue their differing beliefs in details of evolutionary theory, or in the interpretation of the necessarily imperfect fossil record, they firmly accept the evolutionary process itself.

Creationists have learned enough scientific terminology to use it in their attempts to disprove evolution. They do this in numerous ways, but the most common example, at least in the mail I receive is the repeated assertion that the second law of thermodynamics demonstrates the evolutionary process to be impossible.

In kindergarten terms, the second law of thermodynamics says that all spontaneous change is in the direction of increasing disorder—that is, in a "downhill" direction. There can be no spontaneous buildup of the complex from the simple, therefore, because that would be moving "uphill." According to the creationists argument, since, by the evolutionary process, complex forms of life evolve from simple forms, that process defies the second law, so creationism must be true.

Such an argument implies that this clearly visible fallacy is somehow invisible to scientists, who must therefore be flying in the face of the second law through sheer perversity. Scientists, however, do know about the second law and they are not blind. It's just that an argument based on kindergarten terms is suitable only for kindergartens.

To lift the argument a notch above the kindergarten level, the second law of thermodynamics applies to a "closed system"—that is, to a system that does not gain energy from without, or lose energy to the outside. The only truly closed system we know of is the universe as a whole.

Within a closed system, there are subsystems that can gain complexity spontaneously, provided there is a greater loss of complexity in another interlocking subsystem. The overall change then is a complexity loss in a line with the dictates of the second law.

Evolution can proceed and build up the complex from the simple, thus moving uphill, without violating the second law, as long as another interlocking part of the system — the sun, which delivers energy to the earth continually — moves downhill (as it does) at a much faster rate than evolution moves uphill. If the sun were to cease shining, evolution would stop and so, eventually, would life.

Unfortunately, the second law is a subtle concept which most people are not accustomed to dealing with, and it is not easy to see the fallacy in the creationists distortion.

There are many other "scientific" arguments used by creationists, some taking quite cleaver advantage of present areas of dispute in evolutionary theory, but every one of then is as disingenuous as the second-law argument.

The "scientific" arguments are organized into special creationist textbooks, which have all the surface appearance of the real thing, and which school systems are being heavily pressured to accept. They are written by people who have not made any mark as scientists, and, while they discuss geology, paleontology and biology with correct scientific terminology, they are devoted almost entirely to raising doubts over the legitimacy of the evidence and reasoning underlying evolutionary thinking on the assumption that this leaves creationism as the only possible alternative.

Evidence actually in favor of creationism is not presented, of course, because none exist other than the word of the Bible, which it is current creationist strategy not to use.

Some creationists putt all matters of scientific evidence to one side and consider all such things irrelevant. The Creator, they say, brought life and the earth and the entire universe into being 6,000 years ago or so, complete with all the evidence for eons-long evolutionary development. The fossil record, the decaying radio activity, the receding galaxies were all created as they are, and the evidence they present is an illusion.

Of course, this argument is itself irrelevant, for it can be neither proved nor disproved. it is not an argument, actually, but a statement. I can say that the entire universe was created two minutes age, complete with all its history books describing a nonexistent past in detail, and with every living person equipped with a full memory; you, for instance, in the process of reading this article in midstream with a memory of what you had read in the beginning—which you had not really read.

What kind of Creator would produce a universe containing so intricate an illusion? It would mean that the Creator formed a universe that contained human beings whom He had endowed with the faculty of curiosity and the ability to reason. He supplied those human beings with an enormous amount of subtle and cleverly consistent evidence designed to mislead them and cause them to be convinced that the universe was created 20 billion years ago and developed by evolutionary processes that include the creation and the development of life on Earth. Why?

Does the Creator take pleasure in fooling us? Does it amuse Him to watch us go wrong? Is it part of a test to see if human beings will deny their senses and their reason in order to cling to myth? Can it be that the Creator is a cruel and malicious prankster, with a vicious and adolescent sense of humor?

The Bible says that God created the world in six days, and the Bible is the inspired word of God. To the average creationist this is all that counts. All other arguments are merely a tedious way of countering the propaganda of all those wicked humanists, agnostics, an atheists who are not satisfied with the clear word of the Lord.

The creationist leaders do not actually use that argument because that would make their argument a religious one, and they would not be able to use it in fighting a secular school system. They have to borrow the clothing of science, no matter how badly it fits, and call themselves "scientific" creationists. They also speak only of the "Creator," and never mentioned that this Creator is the God of the Bible.

We cannot, however, take this sheep's clothing seriously. However much the creationist leaders might hammer away at in their "scientific" and "philosophical" points, they would be helpless and a laughing-stock if that were all they had.

It is religion that recruits their squadrons. Tens of millions of Americans, who neither know nor understand the actual arguments for or even against evolution, march in the army of the night with their Bibles held high. And they are a strong and frightening force, impervious to, and immunized against, the feeble lance of mere reason.

Even if I am right and the evolutionists' case is very strong, have not creationists, whatever the emptiness of their case, a right to be heard? if their case is empty, isn't it perfectly safe to discuss it since the emptiness would then be apparent? Why, then are evolutionists so reluctant to have creationism taught in the public schools on an equal basis with evolutionary theory? can it be that the evolutionists are not as confident of their case as they pretend. Are they afraid to allow youngsters a clear choice?

First, the creationists are somewhat less than honest in their demand for equal time. It is not their views that are repressed: schools are by no means the only place in which the dispute between creationism and evolutionary theory is played out. There are churches, for instance, which are a much more serious influence on most Americans than the schools are. To be sure, many churches are quite liberal, have made their peace with science and find it easy to live with scientific advance — even with evolution. But many of the less modish and citified churches are bastions of creationism.

The influence of the church is naturally felt in the home, in the newspapers, and in all of surrounding society. It makes itself felt in the nation as a whole, even in religiously liberal areas, in thousands of subtle ways: in the nature of holiday observance, in expressions of patriotic fervor, even in total irrelevancies. In 1968, for example, a team of astronomers circling the moon were instructed to read the first few verses of Genesis as though NASA felt it had to placate the public lest they rage against the violation of the firmament. At the present time, even the current President of the United States has expressed his creationist sympathies.

It is only in school that American youngsters in general are ever likely to hear any reasoned exposition of the evolutionary viewpiont. They might find such a viewpoint in books, magazines, newspapers, or even, on occasion, on television. But church and family can easily censor printed matter or television. Only the school is beyond their control.

But only just barely beyond. Even though schools are now allowed to teach evolution, teachers are beginning to be apologetic about it, knowing full well their jobs are at the mercy of school boards upon which creationists are a stronger and stronger influence.

Then, too, in schools, students are not required to believe what they learn about evolution—merely to parrot it back on test. If they fail to do so, their punishment is nothing more than the loss of a few points on a test or two.

In the creationist churches, however, the congregation is required to believe. Impressionable youngsters, taught that they will go to hell if they listen to the evolutionary doctrine, are not likely to listen in comfort or to believe if they do. Therefore, creationists, who control the church and the society they live in and to face the public-school as the only place where evolution is even briefly mentioned in a possible favorable way, find they cannot stand even so minuscule a competition and demand "equal time."

Do you suppose their devotion to "fairness" is such that they will give equal time to evolution in their churches?

Second, the real danger is the manner in which creationists want threir "equal time." In the scientific world, there is free and open competition of ideas, and even a scientist whose suggestions are not accepted is nevertheless free to continue to argue his case. In this free and open competition of ideas, creationism has clearly lost. It has been losing, in fact, since the time of Copernicus four and a half centuries ago. But creationism, placing myth above reason, refused to accept the decision and are now calling on the government to force their views on the schools in lieu of the free expression of ideas. Teachers must be forced to present creationism as though it had equal intellectual respectability with evolutionary doctrine.

If the government can mobilize its policemen and its prisons to make certain that teachers give creationism equal time, they can next use force to make sure that teachers declare creationism the victor so that evolution will be evicted from the classroom altogether. We will have established ground work, in other words, for legally enforced ignorance and for totalitarian thought control. And what if the creationists win? They might, you know, for there are millions who, faced with a choice between science and their interpretation of the Bible, will choose the Bible and reject science, regardless of the evidence.

This is not entirely because of the traditional and unthinking reverence for the literal words of the Bible; there is also a pervasive uneasiness—even an actual fear—of science that will drive even those who care little for fundamentalism into the arms of the creationists. For one thing, science is uncertain. Theories are subject to revision; observations are open to a variety of interpretations, and scientists quarrel among themselves. This is disillusioning for those untrained in the scientific method, who thus turn to the rigid certainty of the Bible instead. There is something comfortable about a view that allows for no deviation and that spares you the painful necessity of having to think.

Second, science is complex and chilling. The mathematical language of science is understood by very few. The vistas it presents are scary—an enormous universe ruled by chance and impersonal rules, empty and uncaring, ungraspable and vertiginous. How comfortable to turn instead to a small world, only a few thousand years old, and under God's personal and immediate care; a world in which you are his particular concern and where He will not consign you to hell if you are careful to follow every word of the Bible as interpreted for you by your television preacher.

Third, science is dangerous. There is no question but that poison gas, genetic engineering, and nuclear weapons and power stations are terrifying. It may be that civilization is falling apart and the world we know is coming to an end. In that case, why not turn to religion and look forward to the Day of Judgment, in which you and your fellow believers will be lifted into eternal bliss and have the added joy of watching the scoffers and disbelievers writhe forever in torment.

There are numerous cases of societies in which the armies of the night have ridden triumphantly over minorities in order to establish a powerful orthodoxy which dictates official thought. Invariably, the triumphant ride is toward long-range disaster. Spain dominated Europe and the world in the 16th century, but in Spain orthodoxy came first, and all divergence of opinion was ruthlessly suppressed. The result was that Spain settled back into blankness and did not share in the scientific, technological and commercial ferment that bubbled up in other nations of Western Europe. Spain remained an intellectual backwater for centuries. In the late 17th century, France in the name of orthodoxy revoked the Edict of Nantes and drove out many thousands of Huguenots, who added their intellectual vigor to lands of refuge such as Great Britain, the Netherlands, and Prussia, while France was permanently weakened.

In more recent times, Germany hounded out the Jewish scientists of Europe. They arrived in the United States and contributed immeasurably to scientific advancement here, while Germany lost so heavily that there is no telling how long it will take it to regain its former scientific eminence. The Soviet Union, in its fascination with Lysenko, destroyed its geneticists, and set back its biological sciences for decades. China, during the Cultural Revolution, turned against Western science and is still laboring to overcome the devastation that resulted.

As we now, with all these examples before us, to ride backward into the past under the same tattered banner of orthodoxy? With creationism in the saddle, American science will wither. We will raise a generation of ignoramuses ill-equipped to run the industry of tomorrow, much less to generate the new advances of the days after tomorrow.

We will inevitably recede into the backwater of civilization, and those nations that retain opened scientific thought will take over the leadership of the world and the cutting edge of human advancement. I don't suppose that the creationists really plan the decline of the United States, but their loudly expressed patriotism is as simpleminded as their "science." If they succeed, they will, in their folly, achieve the opposite of what they say they wish.

( Isaac Asimov, "The 'Threat' of Creationism," New York Times Magazine, June 14, 1981; from Science and Creationism, Ashley Montagu, ed., New York: Oxford University Press, 1984, pp. 182-193. )

Hello Vade,

Did you know the cosmic microwave background radiation reveals that the universe was once quite evenly filled with a hot gas of hydrogen, helium, and a little lithium? Nothing else, just that? Would you say the information content of the universe has gone up or down since then?

Where are the necessary words like (possibly but we didn't have measuring instruments back then) or (there may have been "little essence" of Emeril Bam! Bam!) or (my microwave oven is full of hot gas, a bottle of hydrogen peroxide, my kids balloon from the party and also my battery from my laptop "a little lithium" and thats it, really I took out the glass carousel). hehehe

But seriously where can I read up on this?

Darwin originally proposed the inheritance of acquired traits ...

That was Lamarck.

Yes, but I thought that Darwin embraced it as the source of change upon which Natural Selection worked. Perhaps not.

... or Simpson's Punctuated Equilibrium ...

S.J. Gould and Niles Eldredge's punctuated equilibrium .

Sorry, I knew it was Gould, but I'm always mixing up those two scientists with three names :-)

In no case has information been observed to spontaneously arise out of the undirected actions of the laws of the natural world.

Did you know the cosmic microwave background radiation reveals that the universe was once quite evenly filled with a hot gas of hydrogen, helium, and a little lithium? Nothing else, just that? Would you say the information content of the universe has gone up or down since then?

The cosmic microwave background radiation has been interpreted within the framework of the big bang theory as indicating an early, largely uniform universe. The radiation by itself tells us nothing. Furthermore, it does not compel us to accept the theory. Regardless, if I accept your premise that the information content of the universe has gone up since then, neither the big bang theory nor the existence of uniform microwave radiation explains how this occurred. The existence of more information simply begs the question. Where did it come from?

The radiation by itself tells us nothing.

To the contrary, it tells a great deal. It's temperature is precisely what was predicted (before the background radiation was discovered), as the remnant of the big bang. Its uniformity and ubiquity provide information about conditions in the early universe. There is no other scienfific theory that is consistent with the background radiation. Its discovery ruled out the so-called "steady state theory," which was, until then, the major competition.

Furthermore, it does not compel us to accept the theory.

True. You are free to believe anything you like.

A good page of lecture notes on the early universe, nucleosynthesis and CMB (cosmic microwave background) evidence.

This page cuts quickly to the point I was making.

The cosmic microwave background radiation. This is a bath of photons with an exact thermal (blackbody) form, coming from all directions, now observed at a temperature 2.728 K (view graph). This implies that the Universe was at one time a dense, opaque, and very smooth gas, quite unlike today's view. Tiny fluctuations, a few parts per million, can be observed, as expected for the seeds of today's superclusters of galaxies.

My point is that initial conditions were very simple, almost homogeneous. The continued expansion of the universe along with gravity, nuclear chemistry, and a lot of time got us from there to here. Not only life on earth represent, but everything that looks interesting and complex about the rest of the universe also grew from those early conditions.

Before you start banging on the second law of thermodynamics, there have already been screaming-match threads with lots of second-lawyering on just this point.

There are mathematical and thermodynamic senses of the words "order," "information," etc. which are misleading to the lay reader. A tiny, dense universe of hot quark-gluon plasma can be regarded as having more "information" and a lower state of entropy than a big universe with galaxies, Earthlings, Klingons, Romulans and tribbles. The second law is not violated by the history of the universe, but you have to be thinking of the location and velocity of every furiously flying quark and gluon inside the little-ball universe as an element of precisely ordered information to claim we've lost information since then.

Another way to think of it is that indeed the useable energy content (potential) of the universe has run down considerably because of the very gravitational collapse, nucleosynthesis, and chemosynthesis that created stars, planets, and people. You can trade unused potential energy for order (in the usual sense), turning potential energy into entropy in the process. That has happened with the universe.

I'm reading into this the usual creationist foot-dragging refusal to make any inference that points to conclusions he doesn't like, no matter what the evidence. If you won't make inferences from a clear preponderance of evidence, there's no point pretending that you're arguing about science at all.

I think 1325 addresses your questions.

Rachumlakenschlaff said:
The new recipe is certainly different but has new information been created? I think not. If it contains new information that wasn't originally there, then what is it's meaning? What does it convey? Have we now learned how to make a rasberry cake? No. We haven't learned anything because there is no new information in the altered recipe. There's no question that we get something different if we apply the same set of baking rules to different ingredients, but this was known before the change ever took place.

VadeRetro said:
Hemoglobin, which carries oxygen in blood, arose from a duplication mutation in the gene for myoglobin, which carries oxygen in muscles. Was this not new or useful?

I may be wrong, but I don't believe anyone has ever observed myoglobin mutating into hemoglobin; rather, it is conjecture within evolutionary theory. Hemoglobin is very useful if the organism knows how to use it, but information can not be divorced from the intelligence that knows how to use it. If I start with the word "cat" and duplicate it so that I have "catcat", do I have more information?

I may be wrong, but I don't believe anyone has ever observed myoglobin mutating into hemoglobin; rather, it is conjecture within evolutionary theory.

Again I'm seeing a pattern in which inferences you don't like are "conjecture." Science does nothing but gather physical evidence and decide what's the best Occam's Razor interpretation of the overall picture. If you reserve the right up front to brand anything as "conjecture" that would otherwise force you to change your mind, you're doing something unrelated to science. (Probably, you're practicing the pursuit known as "religion.")

I'm just going to show you what you get if you Yahoo! on "myoglobin hemoglobin duplication." From the first link thereon, a page on Duplication Mutations,

Is there evidence that this scenario has happened? Yes, it seems to have happened often. Myoglobin, which stores oxygen in muscles, strongly resembles hemoglobin, which carries oxygen in blood. Both are necessary to humans, but invertebrates such as the worm C. elegans only have one kind of globin. So, it is a reasonable hypothesis that our genes for myoglobin and hemoglobin are "descended" from one single ancestral gene, which got duplicated. And, in fact, there are "unnecessary" structural similarities between human myoglobin and human hemoglobin. If the similarities aren't due to common ancestry, then we have found a really really big coincidence.

The second link has lots of swarmy detail on (and several examples of) what you call a "conjecture."

The third link starts by addressing your larger point before diving into Molecular Paleontology.

Life's incessant accumulation of information goes against the grain of the Universe. Whereas most natural processes are dissipating energy and destroying order, life is continually creating it (and using up solar energy in the process). However, the spontaneous emergence of complexity, and hence order, is now thought be a property of many natural processes. Such systems operate at the edge of chaos in that they lie, mathematically, between the readily predictable (ocean tides, phases of the Moon, compound interest) and unpredictable chaos (whitewater turbulence, next month's weather, stock market peaks and troughs).
Thus the information content of Earth life has grown steadily over the past four billion years ...

326 hits. Look long enough, you can probably find some creationists in there helping you pretend that nothing means anything you don't want.

Condorman wrote:
When the recipe mutates, the line indicating the amount of chocolate get repeated. You now have a double-chocolate cake. Mmmmm....

But since you have two entries for chocolate now, what if the next time you bake it, the second entry changes to raspberries? Now you have three cake species living in your recipe box. A chocolate cake, a double-chocolate cake, and a chocolate-raspberry cake.

It seems to me that we have one recipe, the one for the chocolate-raspberry cake. It consists of the instructions for making a chocolate cake but a new ingredient has been added. So, have we learned how to make a chocolate-raspberry cake? No, we know how to make a chocolate cake but we now have an extra ingredient, raspberries, with no instructions on how to use it. A clever baker, using his intelligence and experience, could further alter the instructions and ingredients to work with the new ingredient so as to produce a chocolate-raspberry cake that someone might want to eat.

What if the cake were instead baked by a robot that was programmed to bake cakes? What will the robot (or, more precisely, it's programming) do with the raspberries if the instructions for processing the chocolate were not duplicated along with the raspberries? If the robot ignored the raspberries for lack of instructions, then it makes a chocolate cake. But how does the robot know to ignore the raspberries? What if it instead applied the existing instructions to the new list of ingredients? Let's say that there were originally 10 ingredients and 20 instructions. The chocolate was ingredient 4 and instruction 9 was applied to ingredient 5. After the mutation of ingredients, we have 11 ingredients and 20 instructions with the raspberries being the new 5th ingredient. Instruction 9 is now applied to raspberries instead of, say, the flour. Once the programming encounters the new 5th ingredient, all subsequent processing steps are out of step with the remaining ingredients.

What if the instructions for processing the chocolate were duplicated along with the raspberries? Raspberries are kind of lumpy compared to the powdered chocolate the instructions were designed for. One step for the chocolate is to sift it. I wonder what will happen when I try to sift the raspberries.

Now, when are you inviting us over, because I'm suddenly getting hungry?

How's Thursday at 8? I'll be serving whatever is made after I randomly change one of the ingredients to something else I have in my kitchen. And because you're the guest of honor, you get to eat the first piece!

Rachumlakenschlaff wrote:
The radiation by itself tells us nothing.

PatrickHenry wrote:
To the contrary, it tells a great deal. It's temperature is precisely what was predicted (before the background radiation was discovered), as the remnant of the big bang. Its uniformity and ubiquity provide information about conditions in the early universe. There is no other scienfific theory that is consistent with the background radiation. Its discovery ruled out the so-called "steady state theory," which was, until then, the major competition.

Like I said, the radiation by itself tells us nothing. If we didn't have the big bang theory, what would the radiation tell us? Facts, by themselves, are fairly useless without the benefit of a theory or philosophy that attempts to organize and make sense of those facts. I'm not disputing that the background radiation is consistent with the big bang theory. But back to my question, how does the big bang theory explain the existence of more information now then when everything started?

VadeRetro wrote:
...The continued expansion of the universe along with gravity, nuclear chemistry, and a lot of time got us from there to here. Not only life on earth represent, but everything that looks interesting and complex about the rest of the universe also grew from those early conditions.

...You can trade unused potential energy for order (in the usual sense), turning potential energy into entropy in the process. That has happened with the universe.

Like I said, for arguments sake, I will accept the premise that the big bang occurred. Your statements above are evolutionary dogma. You still haven't answered my question, how does the big bang theory explain the information that exists now but did not formerly exist? Do you really believe that information just happens given the laws of chemistry and physics and a lot of time? Does the theory pedict it?

Rachumlakensclaff wrote:
The cosmic microwave background radiation has been interpreted within the framework of the big bang theory as indicating an early, largely uniform universe. The radiation by itself tells us nothing. Furthermore, it does not compel us to accept the theory.

VadeRetro wrote:
I'm reading into this the usual creationist foot-dragging refusal to make any inference that points to conclusions he doesn't like, no matter what the evidence. If you won't make inferences from a clear preponderance of evidence, there's no point pretending that you're arguing about science at all.

You're reading in too much. I'm not debating the big bang theory. I'm asking how the big bang theory explains the information that now exists in the universe but was not there originally.

VadeRetro wrote:
Again I'm seeing a pattern in which inferences you don't like are "conjecture." Science does nothing but gather physical evidence and decide what's the best Occam's Razor interpretation of the overall picture. If you reserve the right up front to brand anything as "conjecture" that would otherwise force you to change your mind, you're doing something unrelated to science. (Probably, you're practicing the pursuit known as "religion.")

How quickly these discussions turn into personal attacks instead of fruitful debate. And your straw-man arguments are not convincing. If you would like to debate what I said instead of the "patterns" you detect in me, I'm all for it.

If the similarities aren't due to common ancestry, then we have found a really really big coincidence.

Or a design. Similarities prove nothing. Snow is white. Metal heated to a sufficient temperature is white. What does this tell us?

Life's incessant accumulation of information goes against the grain of the Universe.

'Kind of makes you wonder how the universe produced life.

Whereas most natural processes are dissipating energy and destroying order, life is continually creating it (and using up solar energy in the process). However, the spontaneous emergence of complexity, and hence order, is now thought be a property of many natural processes. Such systems operate at the edge of chaos in that they lie, mathematically, between the readily predictable (ocean tides, phases of the Moon, compound interest) and unpredictable chaos (whitewater turbulence, next month's weather, stock market peaks and troughs).

Are you saying that information spontaneously generates? Which brings us back to my original question, how is the creation of information governed by natural laws.)

js1138 wrote:
can you prove there is more information in the universe now than during the big bang? I've never seen any consensus on this among physicists.

I don't know. I took it as self-evident. Does a uniform mixture of simple gases contain the same amount of information as the genetic code of a bacterium? Or even the simplest short story ever written? Actually, the original question I posed dealt with the increase of information between the first living thing and human beings, but somehow it got turned into a discussion of the big bang. I am not aware of any controversy on whether or not the genetic code of human beings contains more information than the simplest of organisms.

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