Posted on 01/12/2003 9:15:48 PM PST by Sparta
I've been reading posts by people who use the term Conservative and others who use the term Libertarian. I have a question for all FReepers, is there a difference between the two?
Slur taken. The fact of the matter is that nearly every libertarian who posts on this forum favors a more limited government. That is in line with the stated goal of FreeRepublic. Nuff' said.
That is why you people are hanger-ons. You claim to be independents, but you never do much on your own. Perhaps that is why you never get more than 1/2 of 1% of the vote.
The real reason the LP doesn't get more than 0.5% of the vote is because 99.5% of the voting electorate 1.) doesn't want limited government or 2.) are pragmatists who refuse to cast protest votes.
It has very little to do with the overall logic of libertarian philosophy.
The “attain goals” wording kind of needs a little explanation before I could go along with it. For instance is a police officer turning on his red lights to pull over someone the officer believes is drunk driving a use of force, and if so is the officer using force that would be a use of force in the defense of rights or to attain a goal?
If this is not a use of force would the impounding vehicle be a use of force to attain the goal of depriving a drunk driving his vehicle?
My problem is I see most all use of force must have a goal so where are your perimeters?
You said you had a say in who is allowed on the site. Please explain.
Why you are here is not up to me.
Bingo, now you have it!
I am simply saying that you people (slur intented) should form your own forum.
I'm saying that YOU people (slur intended) should form your own forum if you don't like what Robinson does with his.
That is why you people are hanger-ons.
Huh? hangers on? Explain.
You claim to be independents,
I have never claimed any such thing.
but you never do much on your own.
Huh?
Perhaps that is why you never get more than 1/2 of 1% of the vote.
Me? I have never run for anything. What the hell are you talking about?
Political goals.
For instance is a police officer turning on his red lights to pull over someone the officer believes is drunk driving a use of force, and if so is the officer using force that would be a use of force in the defense of rights or to attain a goal?
Defense of rights is the only legitimate use of government force. The goal is to defend rights. Government exists to defend rights.
My problem is I see most all use of force must have a goal so where are your perimeters?
Force is legitimate in defense of rights, not to make others do what you want them to do.
I think that it is fair to say so. The Libertarian party specifically targeted Bob Barr for defeat in the past election, SPECIFICALLY because of his stand on drugs. This is despite the fact that Bob Barr is one of the strongest supporters of the second ammendment.
I think that it is fair to say so.
You think wrong because of the bold word. Not to mention most libertarians do not use illict drugs. So they don't "want them", they just oppose goverment control of their use.
You say Government exists to defend rights is this the sole purpose of government?
Moronic comment of the day bump.
OK, I've read the replies, and only one thought comes to mind - re: the article below. It is obvious that the current version of the Democratic Party fulfills all of the 45 goals of the Communist Party in 1963, and the Libertarian Party joins right in with Nos. 4, 12, 13, 15, 16, 24, 25, 26, 33, 35, and 42. It's too bad we don't have any more Patriots like Ronald Reagan who truly represents what this country is and was all about.
From www.uhuh.com/nwo/communism/comgoals.htm
Communist Goals (1963)
Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35
January 10, 1963
Current Communist Goals
EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Thursday, January 10, 1963
Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.
At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:
[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]
CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS
1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.
2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.
3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.
4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.
5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.
6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.
7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.
8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.
9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.
10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.
11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)
12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.
13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.
14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.
15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.
16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.
17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.
18. Gain control of all student newspapers.
19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.
20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.
21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.
22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."
23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."
24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.
26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."
27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."
28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.
30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."
31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.
32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.
33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.
36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.
37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].
39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.
40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.
42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.
43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.
44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.
45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.
Note by Webmaster: The Congressional Record back this far has not be digitized and posted on the Internet.
It will probably be available at your nearest library that is a federal repository. Call them and ask them.
Your college library is probably a repository. This is an excellent source of government records.
Another source are your Congress Critters. They should be more than happy to help you in this matter.
You will find the Ten Planks of the Communist Manifesto interesting at this point.
Click here to see them listed with brain-challenging comments.
Documentation
Webmaster Forest Glen Durland found the document in the library.
Sources are listed below.
The quote starts on page 259.
Microfilm:
California State University at San Jose
Clark Library, Government Floor
Phone (408)924-2770
Microfilm
Call Number:
J
11
.R5
Congressional Record, Vol. 109
88th Congress, 1st Session
Appendix Pages A1-A2842
Jan. 9-May 7, 1963
Reel 12
The book was found in the off campus stacks, was ordered and checked. The quote below was checked against the original and is correct. The few errors in the copy from the Congressional Record are shown in [ ] .
The quote starts on page 259.
California State University at San Jose, Clark Library stacks call number:
Naked Communist
HX
56
S55
Book title page:
Skowsen, We Cleon. Naked Communist
Salt Lake City, Utah: Ensign Publishing Co.
C. 1961 , 9th edition July 1961.
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