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California Supreme Court says rape begins when woman says stop
Associated Press / SFGate

Posted on 01/06/2003 6:33:57 PM PST by RCW2001

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To: friendly
Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ):
Section 920, article 120, paragraph (c)

"Penetration, however slight...."

181 posted on 01/07/2003 5:57:44 PM PST by dogbrain
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To: Born in a Rage
You apparently expect to be treated as an unquestionable oracle, and twist and squirm at an obvious question. I rather suspect that you do think a woman can withdraw consent without saying so and make the man guilty of rape, but it's too montrous to say it out loud right now. Either way, you aren't worth talking too, since you lack the most minimal forthrightness.
182 posted on 01/07/2003 6:08:11 PM PST by A.J.Armitage
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To: bankwalker
LOL...exactly my point.
183 posted on 01/07/2003 6:17:46 PM PST by Dallas
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To: EricOKC
Would you care to tell us what color the sky is in your world?

Blue.

184 posted on 01/07/2003 6:51:49 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: Kozak
Congradulations on winning the coveted "Ayatollah" award.

That's "congratulations". Thank you though.

185 posted on 01/07/2003 6:53:09 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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Comment #186 Removed by Moderator

To: Boot Hill
I hereby mea-culpa my earlier comments. While it seems as often as not that majority California judges have a few screws loose, here it is seems to be the minority judge whose characterization of the agreed-facts defies belief.

According to the later article, the girl was persistent in her efforts to make the boy stop. While I find it surprising that she didn't escalate rather more in her efforts, her persistence would show a clear and unmistakable intention. I find it puzzling that one of the judges would fail to recognize the relevance of that.

[BTW, perhaps I'm unduly cynical with regard to the California courts, but I would not have been unduly surprised if the majority of judges ruled that two ambiguous utterances over a period of 90 seconds should constitute evidence of non-consent, rather than just evidence of having second thoughts.]

187 posted on 01/07/2003 7:34:36 PM PST by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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To: EricOKC
I fail to feel the guy's pain. If he doesn't want to run the risk of being accused of rape in the future, I suggest he waits until he gets married before he has sex.
188 posted on 01/07/2003 9:04:57 PM PST by Texas Eagle
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To: Born in a Rage
Going into someones bedroom at a party doesn't mean they want to have sex anymore than someone walking into your kitchen means they want to cook you an apple pie. Get it?

In this era of feminism and equality, why are we demanding that men take better care of us than we do, respect us more than we do and use more common sense than we do?

I am released of any responsibility for my physical actions as soon as my mouth says no. A man must be in complete control of his body at all times. I can act like the worst kind of skanky slut, but he must be a gentleman or go to jail.

Look, I believe that no ought to mean no. But you ought to know as well as I do that as women, we screw with this rule all the time. "Why no dear, you don't need to make a fuss over my birthday." What's wrong? "Nothing." And women do say "No" when they mean no, but some also say no and mean maybe.

We are only going to make this problem worse if we insist to our young women that they need make no provisions at all for their own safety. Hey, baby just say "I'm not sure about this" as you ALLOW him to take of your clothes after you've kissed and petted and gotten drunk, and you're home free. It's all HIS fault.

189 posted on 01/07/2003 9:17:36 PM PST by Dianna
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To: Born in a Rage
Yes, I did. The point is that a person doesn't have to exactly say "I've changed my mind" in order for another person to know that they changed their mind. You know that and you know I was answering your question, just like this boy knew the girl was telling him to stop.

So, not only do men have to be able to determine whether no means "persuade me", but they have to rely upon our body language as well? So, if I SAY no, but rub my naked body all over him, should I feel raped if he goes ahead?

Going ahead would be wrong, but it would also be eminently understandable.

190 posted on 01/07/2003 9:21:54 PM PST by Dianna
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To: A.J.Armitage; supercat; Yeti; FreeTally
Care to comment on post 189?
191 posted on 01/07/2003 9:25:46 PM PST by Dianna
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To: dfwgator
Or he could have been blocking his ears while burried in her chest. So true! It's a sexist outrage!
192 posted on 01/07/2003 9:53:41 PM PST by A CA Guy
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To: Dianna
In this era of feminism and equality, why are we demanding that men take better care of us than we do, respect us more than we do and use more common sense than we do?

Rape isn't a matter of common sense, it's a violent crime.

I am released of any responsibility for my physical actions as soon as my mouth says no. A man must be in complete control of his body at all times. I can act like the worst kind of skanky slut, but he must be a gentleman or go to jail.

Some men might think that a woman winking at them or wearing a low-cut shirt is a woman "acting like a skanky slut" - and yes if he rapes her he should be locked up in a prison like the animal he is. And yes, a man should be "in complete control" over his body at all times, aren't you?

Look, I believe that no ought to mean no. But you ought to know as well as I do that as women, we screw with this rule all the time. "Why no dear, you don't need to make a fuss over my birthday." What's wrong? "Nothing." And women do say "No" when they mean no, but some also say no and mean maybe.

Ummm, no actually I don't "screw with this rule all of the time" - if you do then maybe you are part of the problem - don't confuse your actions and/or behavior with that of others.

We are only going to make this problem worse if we insist to our young women that they need make no provisions at all for their own safety.

I do think women need to be careful and think of their safety because there are many nutso people out there....that doesn't mean I excuse the nutso people.

Hey, baby just say "I'm not sure about this" as you ALLOW him to take of your clothes after you've kissed and petted and gotten drunk, and you're home free. It's all HIS fault.

Strippers take their clothes off for men all of the time and give them lap dances - they aren't giving the okay for every man in the bar to rape them. And do really think every virgin bride-to-be has never taken her shirt off while alone with her man....and if she does, are you saying she 'deserves' to be raped? I sincerely hope not.

193 posted on 01/07/2003 10:22:41 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: Dianna
So, not only do men have to be able to determine whether no means "persuade me", but they have to rely upon our body language as well?

Ummm, pushing them away should be a clue....so yes.

So, if I SAY no, but rub my naked body all over him, should I feel raped if he goes ahead?

You most certainly should and you would. I don't care if you ran out into the street naked, nobody has the right to violate your body.

Going ahead would be wrong, but it would also be eminently understandable.

If you really feel this way, all I can say is....you have issues, Dianna.

194 posted on 01/07/2003 10:27:14 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: doug from upland
"... the most famous American rapist is still unpunished."

Truer word have never been spoken (or in this case, written). The kid's defense should have been, "I just did what Bill Clinton does all the time!

195 posted on 01/07/2003 10:35:46 PM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: Dianna
Care to comment on post 189?

A woman who is physically capable of making non-consent clear has a responsibility to do so in any case where she has previously given consent. The original article suggested that the girl had failed to make her non-consent unmistakably clear. Post #129 rebutted that, and suggested circumstances which should reasonably be defined as rape [among other things, she used the "N" word which--for whatever reason--the minority judge ignored].

196 posted on 01/07/2003 10:51:16 PM PST by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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To: Yeti
Is it me or does this utterly defy logic, biology, and justice? And he will probably be on a sex-offender list for the rest of his life

The "law" is grotesquely bigoted againt males. Go to most "family" or divorce courts to find out how utterly corrupt the system has become. One of the great untapped sources of rage against liberals is the horrific treatment males get from leftest lawyers and judges. Where are the spokespersons for males? How could the California Supremes be so patently evil?

197 posted on 01/07/2003 11:10:57 PM PST by friendly
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To: Yeti
Is it me or does this utterly defy logic, biology, and justice? And he will probably be on a sex-offender list for the rest of his life.

Oh, unless you are a leading democrat. In which case you can rape and sexually abuse women at will. Think TRUE serial sexual predators Clinton, Kennedy (any), Dodd, Jesse Jackson, etc., ad nauseum.

198 posted on 01/07/2003 11:14:24 PM PST by friendly
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To: Walkingfeather
ER.... um.... hmmm Let's say... You get really friendly one day and you meet someone and open your wallet and you say here start taking money out. At the beginning that's what you want to give them the money. Then after you realize that you hadn't paid rent you say... , Well I must be going and you are still holding open your wallet. At what point of this process is this persons manners supposed to kick in? I think if you snap the wallet shut and push them away and say you have enough stop and you start to walk away. Yes if it continues after that I agree. But I do not think you can say "gee he kept the motion of reaching for my money in my wallet after I told him I should go." And then use the period of time after it was over to negate you willing participation of giving them the money to begin with. Does this makes sense? Or am I off here? You thoughts?

Walkingfeather I get what you are trying to say but when a rape is occurring it is more akin to someone opening their wallet and letting the person have some money and then the person taking the money, well he starts getting crazy, his eyes bulge out and the generous person starts fearing the person taking the money may have a gun in their pocket - the generous person figures maybe they can talk themselves out of the situation without the person who is taking the money going more nutso - they figure that if they just scream and run with the wallet that the crazy man might do more than 'just' take their money, so they try to 'reason' with him first....can you imagine this type of situation? Have you ever run across someone strange and try to back away from them slowly because you feared any sudden moves might make them worse?

199 posted on 01/07/2003 11:18:22 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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To: A.J.Armitage
since you lack the most minimal forthrightness

Okay, since you are so fond of "forthrightness" I guess I'll do the polite thing and respect your wishes and just say....!#@$ %^* @$#*^!#.

200 posted on 01/07/2003 11:31:46 PM PST by Born in a Rage
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