Former NTSB Board Member Wants TWA800Investigation Re-opened By: John Fiorentino

A former NTSB Board member, Dr. Vernon L. Grose has petitioned the NTSB and Congress to reconsider the TWA Flight800 investigation.

In his letter to current NTSB Chair Marion Blakey, Grose urges NTSB to reconsider it's position. He states he has no desire to undermine much of the fine work done by the NTSB.

In writing to the Honorable Paul E. Kanjorski of the US House of Representatives, Dr. Grose is a little more pointed, stating; "I am available to you as a resource in obtaining whatever support you require to seek the truth that, in my opinion, has been subverted."

Perhaps he, Dr. Vernon L. Grose, has got more time on his hands - maybe things are slowing down on the lecture/seminar circuit:

From: http://www.omegainc.com/Seminar_Values.htm

The Role of VALUES in managing Risk
Executives – It’s time to re-calibrate your world!
The NEED Billion-dollar scandals involving the biggest bookkeeping deceptions in history have rocked corporate America. Values like integrity, honesty, truthfulness, and conscience have been totally missing. Worse yet, those values can neither be foreseen, assumed, nor assured by corporate management.
The ANSWER A methodology for managing ALL risk – including the deceit of valueless employees – is essential. It must be systematic, all-encompassing, and global in scope so that it identifies and controls the impact of deception on corporate operations.
The APPROACH Overcome typical fragmented efforts by implementing a proven means for integrating the full spectrum of risk – legal, financial, political, technological, social, and cultural -- faced by decision-makers. (See outline on reverse side)
The TEXT The Prentice Hall best-seller, MANAGING RISK: Systematic Loss Prevention for Executives, by Dr. Vernon L. Grose (furnished)
The DATE 4-6 November 2002
The LOCATION Doubletree Hotel in Arlington, Virginia
The LEADERS Dr. Vernon L. Grose and Guy S. Gardner
The FEE $1195 per participant or $1095 each for groups of 3 or more

BTW - it would appear you posted VERY OLD NEWS (Four and half years to be specific!) purporting to be *new* news:

From: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/5518/grose800.html

Former NTSB Official Backs Missile Theory 21 July, 1998
By Scott Hogenson
CNS Executive Editor
(CNS) A former National Transportation Safety Board member says he can no longer support the conclusion of the NTSB that a spark in a fuel cell caused the explosion and crash of TWA Flight 800 more than two years ago.
Dr. Vernon L. Grose, who also served as a regular commentator on CNN during its coverage of the incident, told CNS in an exclusive interview that new evidence about the explosion indicates that a possible [this means not for certain, we don't have substantial evidence to support this, I only *believe* this, I cannot *prove* this] missile detonation ...

Gentlemen,

I just read all of your posts regarding airport screeners.

It seems to me that E. Pluribus Unum is exaggerating quite a bit. I am not sure where he gets his numbers from but I have a feeling it isn't by scientific method. Therefore, I believe he is making up some of his statistics just to prove his point.

I do know that the Aviation and Transportation Security Act does specify the following qualification for screeners:

"have a high school diploma or equivalent" [GED]

I do know that many screeners throughout the country have lost their jobs because they do not have the qualifications specified by the security act. I know this because I did a quick search on the net and found at least 6 articles from newspapers across the country that bemoan the fate of those who lost their jobs because they no longer qualify.

Justshutupandtakeit, you are egging this poor soul on. It appears that his posts get more outrageous with each reply he sends to you.

We, unlike a lot of you, base our conjecture and hypothesis on actual physical evidence as well as known trends and failure modes seen in certain equipment designs that occur time and time again -

Blah, blah. Who's 'We'? No, I was right the first time. And if the shoe fits, you wear it--you're the disinformation squad. Frankly, you and they should all be rounded up, and court-martialled...those who are in uniformed service. You have done a tremendous disservice to the Republic. You aided and abetted the criminal psychopathic administration of the Clinton's obsession to stomp out links that led to Iraq...and you are still on auto-pilot, from the OKC bombing, the first WTC attack, the Egyptian airliner, to Flight 800. You have directly made 9-11 possible. You and your cadre should be ashamed of yourselves. And don't say you have science on your side. It frankly cuts the other way. If it hadn't been so spectacular and orchestrated you would be denying the middle east connections of the 9-11 attack today. Who knows, maybe you still are.

If so, then a court-martial would be too good for you. Until then, the inimitable words of Bugs Bunny are warranted.

We disagree. I believe a either a shoulder fired missile via terrorism or a friendly fire incident downed this airliner. I do not believe any investigation that does not include even ONE of over two hundred witnesses. Especially when those witnesses, located, of course, in variety of geographical locations near the downing, told their stories and so very many corroborated yet NONE of them were a part of the formal investigation, part of the reporting before the congressional panel by the NTSB. My brother happens to be friends with one of those who saw this horror, and to this day, remains convinced, as do I, that TWA800 was not brought down by a mechanical or structual defect.

MizRiz9 signed up 2003-01-12.

Interesting pair of disruptors. E Pluribus, you have the Leftists dead to rights. Your 50,000 wastrels generalizations stands totally unchallenged by these clowns. The TSA bloating past its allowed 45,000 employees is rather telling, I think. Your point is proven. Interesting that this subject should have attracted the persistent attention of multiple disruptors however, from the leftists to the disinformation operations cabal. They don't dare actually cite any actual articles, because they most likely would contradict them...even from the Daily Worker and the NYT!

I believe he is making up some of his statistics just to prove his point.
I do know that the Aviation and Transportation Security Act does specify the following qualification for screeners:

"have a high school diploma or equivalent" [GED]

As I said earlier, with this same reference, 7000 screeners without high school diplomas were grandfathered in.

Are you saying that ReasonOnline made it up?

I was actually taking more of an issue with your statement:

"50,000 high school dropout"

Although I take most information originally published in the NY Times with a grain of salt. The Times did not, in this case, say anything about 50,000 high school dropouts.
I believe you were using an article that said: 7000 screeners without high school diplomas were grandfathered in. 7,000 is a far cry from 50,000. And if you read Bias by Bernard Goldberg you will find that the NY Times likes to exaggerate numbers just to put forth their own agenda. Just like you did with the 50,000.

Also, from looking at the job requirements at different airports the ones I found required a High School Education.

However, I do agree with you on the cockpit door situation. A pilot from U.S. air told me that their doors are now secure. But, I believe you are correct in saying that the majority are not.

I was actually taking more of an issue with your statement:

"50,000 high school dropout"

Quibble to your totalitarian heart's content about semantics, but the airport screener position is a job that requires ZERO - I repeat, ZERO - brains or preparation. All that is required to be an airport screener is the TSA's 40 hour training course for new hires. That's it. Nothing more.

It is a make-work program for people who can't get real jobs. The only way airport screening could ever be truly effective is to strip-search every single passenger before boarding, and even that would not be 100% effective, but if they did start strip-searching passengers NO ONE would fly, except for people who enjoy body cavity searches.

I am doing my part to take the airport screeners' Fascist jobs from them by boycotting airports. I am not alone.

My God man, semantics is what separates the civilized from the uncivilized. It is what language is all about. Now, stop and regroup. You have valid points. You can express them effectively so don't cheapen them by name calling or inflating statistics, that's what the liberals do.

Now, cool your head a bit and think logically. Take that logic and apply it to your beliefs. Now express it in words that are reasonable and understandable, without name calling or vilifying everyone who opposes your firm beliefs. Then people will listen to you.

By the way, what age group are you in? I have a feeling you are either over 60 or under 20 years-of-age. I also think you are a high school graduate with some college but probably not a degree. I have found that many people who critcize the lack of education are covering up for their own lack of advanced education.

I suppose you already know that justshutupandtakeit attended the University of Chicago (hard to get into, steep reqirements) and has a master's degree, in economics, from Wayne State (it's on his bio here). Yes, he probably works for the government but I wouldn't call him any of the things you did. I think you are playing with fire here and you will only get burned and look stupid.

Stick with your original thought, support it, and stop name calling.

I didn't contradict myself...E. Pluribus used a lesser proof by our standards, but a higher one by justshutupandtakeit's. And yet despite this 'higher proof' ustshutup fails to either reference or counter it with competing documentation, and the evidence clearly establishes the point made by E. Pluribus. The TSA now has 64,000 employees, violating the strict 45,000 employee ceiling set by Congress. And they used some illegal tactics to justify the end-around. One that may still result in bureaucratic heads on platter with the review hearing on this very issue pending soon. I sincerely hope so.

But meanwhile, hopelessly overmatched by reason and evidence, 'justshutupandtakeit' can only quibble with remarkably dense arguments. He just quarrels...and from a clearly leftist-apologist standpoint.

This is conservative forum, which has been targeted by the enemies of liberty from its inception, and is still attacked by same. These attacks take a predictable form. Indeed, that is the consistent pattern, of such 'disruptors' who simply attempt to soil the logical discussion thread with insensate quibbles, personal attacks and digressions...and who offer no legitimate documentation for their contrary positions whatsoever.

And you are playing right into that stereotype. You are a newbie...which means you don't have a lengthy track record here. This is a meritocracy. Your reasoning has to prove itself. You make similarly unsuported quibbles. You attempt an 'ad hominem' affirmance of the worth of 'justshutupandtakeit's assertions by virtue of his purported academic resume. A resume which is frankly and manifestly suspect, if for no other reason than the qualities of his reasoning and ripostes in debate appear to be juvenile and ill-informed. You then make an ad hominem attack on E. Pluribus, with innuendo as to his background and education. You also offer no real proof. The high school grad issue aside, how do you gain-say the assertion that these screener positions are still jobs which will be filled by those who are competency suspect? Are they not less-educated, less-experienced, perhaps less-disciplined, as compared to the free labor market as a whole? Oh, you don't know? Conclusion: You come across as 'justshutup's sock-puppet.

I also think you are a high school graduate with some college but probably not a degree.

I am fifty years old with three degrees and 7 certifications. I don't care what education people have. I care about FREEDOM, and the TSA is about turning America into a police state. The airports are the incubators. The statists want to condition us to accept the idea that probable cause is dead and they can search our houses, our hard drives and our persons and demand to see our papers at any time. Airport screeners are therefore the enemy.

But you don't get personal do you? You just say that anybody who disagrees with you must be an ignoramus.

Thanks to all the disruptors who helped me gel my ideas

ANTI-TERROR ÜBER ALLES

The mythical "freedom versus security" tradeoff is a false choice.

The 911 attacks did not occur because Americans have too much freedom.

They occurred because terrorists were able to gain access to the cockpits of the hijacked aircraft.

Instead of retrofitting all commercial aircraft with doors which could actually be used to keep terrorists out of cockpits, Washington created an Orwellian monster named the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) and hired tens of thousands of minimum-wage Gestapo to root through the underwear of airline passengers.

Simply setting foot in an airport is now considered to be a terrorist act.

The fact that the TSA created a national airport police force without ever addressing the cockpit door scandal is damning evidence that their mandate has nothing to do with protecting anyone.

Their true purpose is to turn America into a police state.

And airports are their incubators.

The statists want to condition us to accept the idea that probable cause is dead and they can search our houses, our hard drives and our persons and demand to see our papers at any time.

Airport screeners are the Brown Shirts of our day.

I also think you are a high school graduate with some college but probably not a degree.

But you don't get personal do you? You just say that anybody who disagrees with you must be an ignoramus.

I also think you are a high school graduate with some college but probably not a degree.

But you don't get personal do you? You just say that anybody who disagrees with you must be an ignoramus.

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