1491

The Atlantic ^ | 4-2-2002 | Charles C. Mann

[blam]

1491

Before it became the New World, the Western Hemisphere was vastly more populous and sophisticated than has been thought—an altogether more salubrious place to live at the time than, say, Europe. New evidence of both the extent of the population and its agricultural advancement leads to a remarkable conjecture: the Amazon rain forest may be largely a human artifact

by Charles C. Mann

(click on the url to read the rest of the article)(Good Read)

[blam]

"There are many interpretations of data collected over centuries, including the eyewitness accounts from history. It seems to assume that the accounts by de Soto, la Salle and others were correct - and tries to figure out why the changes took place."

I pretty much agree with the article and also the large number of people claimed. I've seen an aerial (partial) view of this Amazon region and the channels and 'mounds' go on for hundreds and hundreds of miles. One person (forgot who, when asked) said that it would have taken 50-100 million people (also forgot the time frame) to 'build' all that was visible in this Amazon region. I believe that the South American civilizations is/are the source of the legends of Atlantis. Solon was told (by the Egyptian high priests) that powers across the Atlantic conquered all the countries in the Mediterranean area in prehistoric times. That would have taken a very large population base to accomplish. (If true?)

[Free the USA]

Check the Bump List folders for articles related to and descriptions of the above topic(s) or for other topics of interest.

[blam]

"I was shocked that it was that high. I knew it was over 50%."

I think Nevada is in the 80% range owned by the federal government.

[Freedom_Is_Not_Free]

Amazing. After reading the entire article the most profound thought I am left with is that the scientists never agree and each can build a convincing case for anything. So what do we know now? The entire article is all speculation.

[watcher1]

Europeans, Indians said, were physically weak, sexually untrustworthy, atrociously ugly, and just plain dirty.

Still true of today's euro-peons

civilization was so wonderful, why were its inhabitants leaving?

True!

ecologists' claims about terrible Amazonian land were based on very little data.

True too. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Great article. Too much to comment on all of it.

[Carry_Okie]

There are aspects of this story that disturb me greatly. The first is the assumption of total isolation of the Americas from Europe. This is false. There are numerous accounts and artifacts documenting pre-Columbian European trade with the Americas by Phoenicians, Hebrews, Druids, and Norsemen. With all those visits, there was (according to this theory)not one major introduction of a contagious virus. With cocaine and tobacco samples in Egypt, fired brick in Central America, Phoenician writing in New Mexico, and Druid relics in Kentucky and Minnesota (if memory serves) how is such "isolation" possible? If there wasn't isolation, this theory loses a central premise.

[Free the USA]

bttt

[farmfriend]

I agree with you somewhat on the contagion issue. My question is, if the population wasn't high, as has been traditionally assumed, who where they trading with?

[yankeedame]

Europeans, Indians said, were physically weak, sexually untrustworthy, atrociously ugly, and just plain dirty. Still true of today's euro-peons

The weak would never have survived the voyage. As for the others (untrustworthy, ugly, dirty)...a case of the pot calling the kettle black? And besides, the type of men who sailed to the New World were not exactly the Beau Brummel or Oscar Wilde type, now where they?

...civilization was so wonderful, why were its inhabitants leaving? True!

Nonsense. They weren't leaving civilization. If they were, they would have burned their boats, etc. determined never to return.

[Carry_Okie]

I think the truth is simply more complex than to say that a few diseased Europeans ignorantly wiped them out. The pig theory is interesting but certainly doesn't apply to South America. That there was contagion is historically true as the celebrated example of the Aztecs remids us. Although the theory that South America had an enormous population, shows some evidence, the indications are that most of these people were gone long before Columbus. My guess is that the Americas have had several waves from various directions including the negroid peoples who were wiped out by the Mongolian invasion over the Bering ice bridge only 10,000 years ago or so. Then there's Kenneweck. But that certainly blows the "isolation from dirty Europeans" theory, although that's surely one way to raise research money.

It's going to take a long time (and many grants) to piece this together.

[blam]

"There are aspects of this story that disturb me greatly. The first is the assumption of total isolation of the Americas from Europe. This is false. There are numerous accounts and artifacts documenting pre-Columbian European trade with the Americas by Phoenicians, Hebrews, Druids, and Norsemen. With all those visits, there was (according to this theory)not one major introduction of a contagious virus. With cocaine and tobacco samples in Egypt, fired brick in Central America, Phoenician writing in New Mexico, and Druid relics in Kentucky and Minnesota (if memory serves) how is such "isolation" possible? If there wasn't isolation, this theory loses a central premise."

I agree with you 100%, however, I also (by and large) agree with the premise of the article. I went to sleep last night looking for an answer, without success. I'm baffled!!(Catastrophies local and worldwide do not even get a mention)

[ASA Vet]

who where they trading with?

Maybe the Preposition tribe, in old England.

[blam]

Going Into The Water: A Survey Of Impact Events And The Coastal People Of Southeast North America, The Caribbean And Central America.

[Carry_Okie]

See my reply in #30. There are several problems with the batch of "scientists" doing this research. I call them that because this type of work necessarily involves a degree of projected subjectivity in order to evoke the construction of hypotheses. It is also distorted by the nature of its funding. There is also cut-throat competition involved. Finally, most of the people doing that work are too specialized in their education and thus easily duped.

As far as the pre-Columbian populations are concerned and why they disappeared, there may well be some clues to be found in that city that was just found submerged off the coast of Cuba. I am especially hopeful for what may be found there.

I hadn't yet commented on the final third of the article, which was outstanding. Thanks for posting it. The theme it suggested fits exactly my sense of history and my understanding of ecology. Environmental preservation will give us a world dominated by pest species. Taking care of nature is not easy and it certainly isn't free. Running it by government for the benefit of resource corporations will be disastrous. In that respect, its ethic fits exactly the themes and purpose of my book. I may contact Atlantic Monthly to see if they want to do a review.

[Carry_Okie]

Going Into The Water: A Survey Of Impact Events And The Coastal People Of Southeast North America, The Caribbean And Central America.

LOL! Great minds.

[farmfriend]

Maybe the Preposition tribe, in old England.

Smart @$$.

[farmfriend]

What can I say, I'm a product of the California Public Educational System.

[ASA Vet]

link to thread about the underwater City off Cuba

[blam]

"In that respect, its ethic fits exactly the themes and purpose of my book."

That's you? You wrote that book? I'm complimented to be in such company. (BTW, I spent many days ..1966-1973..in the Santa Cruz/Scotts Valley area...I'm one of the original Silicon Valley boys.) Small world.

[ASA Vet]

link to another thread regarding the offshore Cuban city