Posted on 05/08/2022 7:03:54 AM PDT by Kaslin
A recent article posted on Red State pointed to abortion-related comments made by podcast giant Joe Rogan, suggesting that we can win the pro-life argument by listening to his approach. In the same way, recent comments by the very liberal Bill Maher point to ways that we can have a discussion with pro-abortion friends and colleagues without using religious-based arguments.
To be sure, in order to change hearts and minds, we need God’s help. And under no circumstances should we ever back away from our deeply-held, biblically-based convictions about the humanity of the baby within the womb.
At the same time, when talking with people who do not share our religious values or do not hold the Bible in esteem, there are common-sense, logical arguments we can raise that might just get people to rethink their position.
At the least, these arguments, especially when tied to people like Rogan and Maher, who are anything but Bible-thumping Christian fundamentalists, might just lower the temperature in the room, allowing for cooler heads to prevail.
Interestingly, it was the late Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, herself staunchly pro-abortion, who had warned back in 1992 that Roe was built on a flimsy foundation.
As pointed out by New York Times columnist David Brooks on the PBS News Hour on May 5, “Ruth Bader Ginsburg made this point back in 1992, that that decision was so big, she said it’s fragile. It’s — and then law professors, even very pro-choice law professors, have always said, we’re worried about this decision. It’s not a great decision. They liked the outcome. They worried about the decision. So, it was fragile. And so, hanging all that on that decision was always going to be — it was waiting to go off. And then Alito just ran through it. I — personally — there are two separate issues here: Should abortion be a right that people get to enjoy? Should — does the Constitution guarantee that right? And it’s important to separate those two things.”
In Ginsburg’s own words, “Doctrinal limbs too swiftly shaped, experience teaches, may prove unstable. The most prominent example in recent decades is Roe v. Wade.”
Boom!
As for saying that Justice Samuel Alito “ran through it,” I take to Brooks to mean that Alito exposed these very weaknesses in his devastating, leaked opinion. (Prof. Jay Richards rightly noted that, “Because of the outrage of the leak, etc. Alito's opinion has not [yet] gotten enough credit for being an utterly persuasive and accessible piece of legal reasoning. Notice the social media screamers aren't engaging his arguments.”)
To quote Alito directly, “Although the Court acknowledged that States had a legitimate interest in protecting ‘potential life,’ it found that this interest could not justify any restriction on pre-viability abortions. The Court did not explain the basis for this line, and even abortion supporters have found it hard to defend Roe's reasoning. One prominent constitutional scholar wrote that he ‘would vote for a statute very much like the one the Court ended up drafting’ if he were ‘a legislator’, but his assessment of Roe was memorable and brutal: Roe was ‘not constitutional law’ at all and gave ‘almost no sense of an obligation to try to be’. . . .
“As Justice Byron White aptly put it in his dissent, the decision represented the ‘exercise of raw judicial power,’ and it sparked a national controversy that has embittered our political culture for a half-century.”
And as a legal colleague of mine mentioned after reading Alito’s 98-page document in full, Alito also cites the views of other liberals who recognized the deficiencies of Roe. Those arguments should be part of our arsenal as well.
Getting back to Joe Rogan, he said, “I am 100% for a woman’s right to choose. But as a human being, just a person observing things, there’s a big difference between a little clump of cells and a fetus with the eyeball and a beating heart. And for anybody to pretend there’s not.”
Rogan’s guest, comedian Doug Stanhope asked, “Where do you draw the line?”
Rogan replied, “Right. Where do you draw the line? Yeah, that’s the question. It’s what I call a human issue. It’s a very complicated issue. It’s so fraught with emotion. And it’s so political.”
Again, Rogan’s musing represents just one step in the right direction in the midst of his other statements, with which we strongly differ as pro-lifers. But his words do point to the fact that a strong majority of Americans want some limits on abortion. (On a related note, I believe that if Americans were asked if the states should make their own abortion laws, thereby representing the will of the people in each state, most Americans would agree with this. When they’re asked if Roe should be overturned, most say no, but in my opinion, it’s because they think that would mean a national ban on abortion.)
As for Bill Maher, he said on his Real Time broadcast on May 5, “This whole [expletive] argument about, well, it’s settled law, so was segregation. Plessy v. Ferguson was settled law in 1896 and thank God somebody said, let’s unsettle it. So, it’s not — that’s a [expletive] argument. It’s what you think, if you like babies, then you’re pro-life, and if you like women, you’re pro-choice. I like women.”
So, even Maher recognizes that, if your emphasis is on the wellbeing of the baby, then you’ll be pro-life.
He added, “I just — I feel like…abortion is unique. It is. Because people either — you just have this view that it’s murder — I could put the argument on a hat when people talk about a woman’s right, murder isn’t a right. If you think it’s murder — I don’t — again, crazy me.”
At the least, using his logic (and quoting him directly), we can ask, “So, what do you think about what he said? What if you really believe there’s a little baby in there? Would that affect your viewpoint?”
Again, there’s nothing new in these arguments at all, nor do they provide unique insights into the controversies surrounding abortion.
But they do remind us that plenty of non-religious people recognize the complexity of abortion and that more and more Americans recognize that the standard pro-abortion talking points are not aging well.
And leftists won’t multiply. Another benefit.
“ There is another solution for these creeps.They can have their tubes tied, this way they don’t have to worry about getting pregnant and no baby will lose it’s life.”
The headline says they make the pro life case. Well I’m not reading it I do not want to know the thoughts of either one of these creeps
Here is my take on life in the womb and beyond. From the moment of conception, a divine, wise SOUL was created. The body that held the soul, grew within a nurturing woman’s body until birth. Only God understood the power of a woman to protect a soul. Women who aborts do not understand how special they are, a woman’s body is like Christ’s Chalice. Abortion is murder of a soul,
Uh, no.
When it comes to the effect on minorities, the numbers are unambiguous. In Mississippi, people of color comprise 44 percent of the population but 81 percent of women receiving abortions, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, which tracks health statistics.
In Texas, they’re 59 percent of the population and 74 percent of those receiving abortions. The numbers in Alabama are 35 percent and 69 percent. In Louisiana, minorities represent 42 percent of the population, according to the state Health Department, and about 72 percent of those receiving abortions.
“Abortion restrictions are racist,” said Cathy Torres, an organizing manager with Frontera Fund, a Texas organization that helps pay for abortions. “They directly impact people of color, Black, brown, Indigenous people … people who are trying to make ends meet.”
Birth control pills today are available OVER the counter for about $15 a month.
When they came on the market-—it required that you pay for a visit to the OB-GYN to get a prescription & $20 a month for pills was a much larger expense when you are making $5 a hour.
LIVED IT.
Women today have NO sense of responsibility-—only want to ‘play house’.
AND-—IF you had health care insurance benefits with your job-—THE PILLS WERE NOT COVERED—OR the visit to OB-GYN.
“ Here is my take on life in the womb and beyond. From the moment of conception, a divine, wise SOUL was created. The body that held the soul, grew within a nurturing woman’s body until birth. Only God understood the power of a woman to protect a soul. Women who aborts do not understand how special they are, a woman’s body is like Christ’s Chalice. Abortion is murder of a soul,”
It’s as simple as that.
A lot of talk about laws governing when to abort is distraction.
Talk about voting based on opinion is ridiculous, yes, Tucker.
From the Roe v Wade decision the us government tells people it’s okay to ignore that soul. People allow the government to override natural law and Gods law (same thing) out of atheism, ignorance or convenience or all, or more.
That’s where people pretend to complicate it.
People feel bad enough about aborting their child (women and men) now you have to witness how they feel when the government says ‘forget what we said about abortion being ok’.
We human beings can make some good decisions before pregnancy happens and abortion question is raised.
And I’m not talking condoms and pills I’m just saying stop selfishly wanting to use other people’s bodies for sexual purposes.
The pandemic of selfishness about sex (lust) is a problem and other people get hurt when I choose to be selfish and I can be hurting myself as well.
You're right, but arguing using a religious theme is a losing argument. You're not going to convince anyone, they'll only think of you as a religious nut.
Instead, argue that a separate, unique individual human being is created at fertilization, which is provable with DNA and that this new person deserves a chance at life. Their only defense against this argument is to say that DNA doesn't work.
I wholeheartedly agree, but that doesn't mean Maher or Rogan 'make the case'.
Guys can do the same thing with a vasectomy.
Just because blacks are aborting their children at higher rates than whites doesn’t make it right.
And it’s not racist. No one is making blacks have more abortions and no one will prevent blacks from having abortions once is goes back to the states.
“Again, that’s just crazy me”
Has he mentally brushes the whole argument aside with a snort in a bit of a laugh and onto other things... and that’s basically how a goldfish mind works.
“ arguing using a religious theme is a losing argument. You’re not going to convince anyone, they’ll only think of you as a religious nut.”
Is it religious to determine when does life begin?
It has to be a religious based decision because that’s the foundation of our country. Our rights are given to us from God. If they’re given to us by man, then man can give & take. If they’re God given, only God may take them away.
Exactly. When God is taken out of society and people deny our foundation is from the creator we have this culture gap.
Everyone knows natural law. They know life begins at conception. But for convenience and lifestyle a lot of people deny it. Then for their conscience everyone has to also deny it. Otherwise there will be the leftist temper tantrum
There should be a Conservative push to promote:
Yes and no. Religious teachings knew for a long time that life begins at what they call "conception". Later, much later, science got around to understanding this process with sperm and egg, etc. DNA would now prove the religious teachings that life begins at conception/fertilization to be true.
Reminder: a large part of pro-abortion is that these people don't want to be on the same side of any issue as religious people, so they have a knee-jerk reaction against any religious teachings.
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