Posted on 09/08/2015 9:19:57 PM PDT by Steelfish
Pastor And Seminary Teacher Who Was Outed As Member of Ashley Madison Commits Suicide Because He Carried Too Much 'Shame' John Gibson, 56, taught at the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminar Was on the list of 32million names released after the huge hack in August His wife Christi said he felt shame, but insisted she would've forgiven him Gibson had also suffered from addiction and depression in the past By WILLS ROBINSON 8 September 2015
A pastor who was outed as a member of Ashley Madison has committed suicide. Father-of-two John Gibson, a teacher at New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminar was found dead by his wife after his name was one of the 32 million released during the cyber hack last month. The 56 year old is just one of many purported users of the extra-marital affair site who are believed to have taken their own lives after the huge release of names by online criminals .
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
Paul was converted when he accepted Christ as savior. A very crude and unmolded person who though he knew the laws did not understand yet Jesus Christ and how it related to his struggle with past, present. nd future sinful nature & temptations. A very primitive level of belief is what it takes to have salvation By Grace through Jesus. The Faith of a mustard seed the smallest of seeds. A believer with understanding as of a child which is what Paul was trying to get to the point where he could continue after chapter 8.
These persons he was addressing were recent converts and new Christians because Christianity itself was in the very early days of existence. He is explaining to them this is the conflicts going on within them and this is why sin no longer has a hold on you so they could understand and not loose faith.
The journey takes years and is actually life long. We start out believing wise as infants and grow. All the knowledge in all the written books and even understanding them can not save you. Only the act of acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior can do it. It takes the Blood of Jesus He alone is worthy before GOD.
Jesus is either powerful enough to cleanse and forgive all of our sins & failures past, present, and future or He isn't. He lived the perfection man can not. Even after man accepts Christ as Lord and Savior mans deeds can not save him. The sin in you is separated from your spirit being at the time of salvation which is sealed and pardoned by the Blood of Jesus Christ. That full pardon comes when we stand before GOD after this life and see all of our sins. In the meantime we still pay for in this world the results of our sins past, present, and future as the earthly governmental laws call for. The thief beside Jesus Christ was saved that day yet he died physically because of his sin. We are not pardoned from that part.
The believer has two natures when he is born again.
This battle between the flesh (old man) and the spirit (new man) goes on for the rest of our lives.
That is why we are never sinless.
That is the battle taking place in Paul in Romans 7
Paragraphs would help. :)
But no, it’s quite a trick to read Holy Scripture and get that you are saved from death no matter what. It’s just nonsensical in reading the NT.
There’s a reason that theology wasn’t any Christian doctrine until 1600 years on, and it’s still not doctrine except for some relatively small segments.
yeah I dunno what happened, there- I had paragraphs before I posted- I think I hit space 3 times for one paragraph or something weird-
[[But no, it’s quite a trick to read Holy Scripture and get that you are saved from death no matter what. It’s just nonsensical in reading the NT.]]
Really? nonsensical? There are tons of verses that speak about eternal salvation
Like I said, there are many excellent sites that carefully look into this issue- and salvation happened in the old testament too, and it was just as eternal then as it is now-
Nah it's just life the good and the bad. My mind went to some places I'd rather not go a few times especially recently but I just take it day by day till the storm has calmed. As an uncle told me when my aunt was dieing. "I accept it and I can't change it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it".
In my youth and my jealousy of other people and their God-given gifts that God didn't give me,
I was too. Gym in school was a torment all in itself. No athletic abilities for me there. But my dad was wise. He refocused my direction on what he knew I could do well. I could out hike with a backpack any jock and could handle myself in the woods or camping alone. I had a kids dream. A fishing boat {7.5 hp motor LOL}, dog, camp, lake, and a rifle.
In basic I had some trouble with the physical part like marching in step then came the swim test. I actually enjoyed that part of it. I could tread water indefinitely and swim good enough to pass.
Yes, eternal salvation. But not OSAS.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
Men change. Salvation occurs at the moment of our death. Agreed? Until then...
We are saved, we are being saved, we hope for salvation when we die. There is time and change and we persevere, we try.
Let’s take an extreme example:
A man is a hardcore disciple of Satan from age 18 to 25.
He meets a girl at age 26. She ‘converts’ him. He is saved according to your criteria.
All is well for six months.
At age 27, he begins to hate her and his life. He goes off and kills her. (I told you this was an extreme example. :)
For the next 20 years he goes back to his old ways, the most vicious, hateful, violent and cruel disciple of Satan you could imagine. He curses his brief fling as a Christian, curses Christ and all humanity. (See, told you this was an extreme example - to test the point.)
In full raging curse of God, he dies, unrepentant.
Which man is he at his death?
I believe you’d say he’s saved. I think that would turn Holy Scripture on its head.
thanks again for your discussion
[[“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”]]
There are many who claim to be Christians who are not- just like the Pharisees- Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but this has nothing to do with losing salvation- it is simply a verse that speaks to groups like westborrow Baptist church who CLAIM to be Christian but who obviously are not
[[He meets a girl at age 26. She ‘converts’ him.]]
Since when do people convert other people?
[[At age 27, he begins to hate her and his life. He goes off and kills her. (I told you this was an extreme example.]]
So you are saying he has a mental problem?
[[For the next 20 years he goes back to his old ways, the most vicious, hateful, violent and cruel disciple of Satan you could imagine.]]
People fall into sins- terrible sins- King David did- He murdered a man just to get the man’s wife for himself- you don’t get much worse than that- Yet God STILL called him a man after his own heart
And we’ve discussed this issue already- IF that man truly accepted Christ- then He is not a true Satanist, as Satan caN NOT touch this man’s soul any longer-
[[I believe you’d say he’s saved. I think that would turn Holy Scripture on its head.]]
No sir, saying he loses his salvation turns scripture on it’s head-
As I mentioned, there are many many great websites full of scholarly people who have studied God’s word in great detail- far greater than you or I will ever do mostl ikely- and their wisdom and knowledge will show that once you are saved, you can not lose your salvation- no matter what you do-
Your example was extreme- but the man was still saved and no doubt suffering from mental issues and delusion- (Note that God does not promise that we will never suffer mental issues, or delusions or physical problems etc- but it’s obvious that someone pretending to be a Satanist is suffering from mental problems that need help- professional help. God doesn’t magically get rid of our anger and even rage when we get saved- this is a lifelong process, and some are much more successful than others, while some never do accomplish any gains over their anger-
You example had him murdering the woman- Christians sometimes fall into murder as we’ve seen In the example of King David- who again, was always called a man after God’s own heart, and a man God communed with- God doesn’t commune with the unsaved- except to bring them salvation - that is the only time He hears an unsaved person’s prayer-
I realize it’s a hard thing to believe God saves once and for ever- when we see people committing heinous crimes and living in sin and doing despicable things- however, the word of God backs this up
And as you’ll note from other posters a few posts back- God does NOT spare such backslidden Christians from suffering the consequences of their actions (ie: a murderer may be caught, sentenced to death- that person CHOSE to sin knowing full well the consequneces of man’s law- and God does not spare us when we do such things-)
Anyways- I’ll see if I can find a good site that speaks of eternal salvation IF you are interested In researchign the issue
Ahh, an insanity plea. :)
Assume he wasn't insane, just chose Satan over God. Your theory fails here.
I realize it’s a hard thing to believe God saves once and for ever- when we see people committing heinous crimes and living in sin and doing despicable things- however, the word of God backs this up
It's hard to believe because it's just not what Christ taught. Not salvation without repentance. You theory has that major flaw. He died without repenting.
I had a kids dream. A fishing boat {7.5 hp motor LOL},...
Okay. You got me. I'm wrong again. I take back what I said about you probably not being one of those I would have envied in my youth.
At that age I had the other stuff you mentioned, but OMG how I would have envied you and that boat and motor! Lol!
I didn’t say insane, I said mental problems- Someone hwo murders soemoen else, and has extreme anger issues has mental problems
[[It’s hard to believe because it’s just not what Christ taught.]]
Like I said- there are many many verses that speak about eternal salvation- ALL of those verses speaking directly to Christians or telling unsaved folks how they CAN have eternal salvation
All the verses which SEEM to state Christians can lose their salvation, when examined closely, and carefully, all prove to be speaking to unsaved- to apostates, to the unregenerated- Ever wonder why the difference in intended crowds when speaking on the two issues? There’s a reason- and that reason is that Man can not lose his salvation as stated over and over again in the word-
[[Not salvation without repentance. You theory has that major flaw. He died without repenting.]]
really? So everyone who dies, dies without ‘repenting then’? There are none righteous, no not one- which means IF a man can lose his salvation, then that means salvation relies on an unrighteous ‘promise’ to God and unrighteous acts by man- EVERY man woman and child of age has unrepentant sin when they die- you can NOT die perfectly sinless- IF YOU could then you would NOT need Christ for salvation as salvation would be entirely a works effort by the person
It’s not my ‘theory’ that has a major flaw-
Where is your cutoff point for how many ‘unrepentant sins’ a man can die with and still be saved? A man can NOT repent of all his sins- it’s impossible, that is why it wa absolutely necessary for Christ to die on the cross- because ONLY Christ could be perfect-
Is there a ‘sin scale’ that you use to determine which unrepentant sins are ok, and won’t bar a person from heaven when they die, and which ones aren’t?
are ‘little sins’ ok, while big sins aren’t?
When your fictional person died, He died WITH Christ in his heart - this same Christ who covers ALL our sins- who’s death was sufficient to cover ALL our sins, past present and future- just as the bible states- you character repented when he became saved- repentance simply means a change of mind about who is in charge— it does NOT mean a promise ot never sin again as the heresy of lordship salvation teaches
If Christ Redeems us, and then we lose our salvation later, then Christ’s redemption is powerless to save eternally- but that is not what the bible teaches- it teaches that His death and resurrection are sufficient- no other act is needed for salvation- no effort on our part is needed-
as well there are no verses in God’s word that ever state God will ‘unforgive us’- none-
The bible is also very clear about NOTHING being able to separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ- Nothing! No created thing, including ourselves can ever separate us from the love of God when we are saved-
Also, in John 10:29, Jesus tells us “And I give eternal life to them; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.” No one includes me and you
John 6:39, “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
That verse alone assures us we can not lose our salvation- otherwise Christ would indeed lose some of those whom God gave Him- making Christ a liar in that verse- and since we KNOW Christ can not lie, we know that whomever calls upon the name of the Lord for salvation shall never again be lost- we are secure in Christ- He tells us so Himself, personally!
IF Jesus fails to do the will of the father, then He sins- and what is the will of the Father? Yup- to make sure that NONE of those who accept Him are lost- So your character in your extreme example IS STILL saved when he dies no matter what he does on this earth- IF he loses his salvation as you suggest, that makes Christ a liar, a failure and a disobedient Son - Your theory’s major flaw is that if a saved man dies ‘unrepentant’ and loses their salvation, then Christ has FAILED to raise up to glory that person whom God had given Him at salvation
I think that your post was misaddressed to me.
Going into deeper questions what about an alcoholic? Growing up I knew an alcoholic who was a cousin to our neighbor. He would stay sober enough to work and made good money. But he would drink until he passed out. As soon as the man got paid before he bought his booze he stopped at an old country store buying up food mainly ten pounds of bologna, fat back, bread, beans, and potatos. The grocer said where are you going to put this meat it will spoil. He said to the grocer don't worry it will be OK..
No one knew why he was buying all that food. He never told them. {I found this out later that he didn't tell anyone}. But I did see him deliver it many times when I was a kid. a He would take the food & go to his cousins home who's husband had left her and nine kids to go get drunk and womanize for his fun. By that point when the womans cousin got there he would be quite drunk. Guess where the food was going? I know it's true I saw it not once but every week almost. I know now that no one knew the man was doing this except few people and not even the grocer knew what he did with it although the grocer knew him well. Everyone in the county did.
My future wife living in a community almost 20 miles away saw him buying it before at that store and at the time she didn't know either till I told her years later where it all went. This was long before I met her.
Everyone knew that man though. He had been a deacon and had a family his kids were grown. An event happened he just could not handle or overcome the grief of and began drinking not for the fun of a drunk but to numb himself from a memory he could not get over. It was simply the loss of his wife.
Oddly enough another man lived next door to the woman and nine kids. He too was a deacon but very active in his church. He would ask the mom every Saturday if the kids wanted to go to church the next day. The one thing he refused to do? Spare them so much as a bucket of water from his well. The mother did not have running water and water had to be carried in by the kids thus she relied on others to allow her to get water from their well.
She had two wells close enough to help her. The deacons and someone elses who always let them have water and if possible what else they needed. Which man would you want to be on judgement day? The alcoholic or the deacon? Which one would be most rewarded?
From what I gather years later the alcoholic sobered up and got his life back on track from what I saw in his Obit. He really was a kind man who meant no one no harm. The other deacon was one neighborhood men had to watch around women because of wandering eyes.
Only The Lord has the authority to sort it out and be the final judge. Despite what we witness we do not know the full circumstances or true state of any one persons mind. I do think some forms of one being mentally ill is what was called in The Bible having Demon spirits. Where did Christ condemn a one of them? He condemned the demon spirit causing it to come out and cast them from the person separating them from whom they tormented.
In my 58 years I have known only one professed devil worshiper. A guy on the ship of all places in the Fire Dept who held rituals at his rack. He would send cold chills up the spine. So why would a Christian woman become involved with not an atheist but someone worshiping satan?? Some have made it out of satanism. Some didn't. What would you call someone like Manson? Mean? Demon Possessed? Mentally Ill? All three or any combination in between? We don't know. We do know one stone cold fact fact. He is a danger to all.
Not when it broke down or you were trying to outrun a storm LOL. It was an old likely late 1940's early 1950's open faced Evinrude with all the knobs etc on the face of it. Someone jogging on land could keep up LOL.
The obvious point is that the person who is carnal; that is, one who claims to be saved, yet lives a habitual lifestyle of carnality without repentance is unsaved, and that not by my standards, but by that of the Apostles Paul, John, Peter, and according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Paul:
A new creation
2 Cor 5:17 2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
delivered from sin as a master
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Under grace
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
not receiving or preaching another gospel
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
2 Cor. 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
living and walking in the Spirit of Christ
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Beloved John:
agreeing with God concerning our sins, and abandoning them
1 Jn. 1:9-10 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
abide in Christ and keep His commandments
1 Jn. 2:3-6 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he (Jesus) walked.
abstain from sinful thoughts and behavior
1 Jn. 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1 Jn. 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 Jn. 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn. 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not (persistently) commit sin; for his (God's) seed (Word) remaineth in him (the saved person): and he (the saved person) cannot (habitually practice) sin (as a lifestyle, seen by all), because he is born of God.
Jesus, Risen Lord and Messiah:
abandon your sin-filled life-style and be saved
Mk.1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
do not keep on living sinfully as you did before your sins were forgiven
Jn. 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
To be saved, one must be willing to abandon the old life
Lk. 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk_14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
a saving belief includes learning and following the Commands of Christ
Mat 28:20 Teaching them (the future disciples) to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.
believing on Him means living as he commands
Jn. 3:18 He that (persistently) believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not (persistently) is condemned already, because he hath not (by persistent obedience) believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
=======
I am so amazed that you have not grasped this point, but are preaching another gospel.
You cannot use Abraham, David, Samson to illustrate the covenant under which God deals with humans today. Yes, they were saved by faith also, but under different dispensations of God's grace. Since Jesus has come in the flesh, and instituted New Covenant by His death, burial, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Holy Ghost to indwell His peristently committed followers, thee is now a new standard for behavior, and He is it. To His disciples He spoke of this standard:
Mt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Because of Christ's katellaggo (Strong's Greek 2643/2644), His act of reconciliation, His Father does extend friendship and new birth, imputing the righteousness of Christ to the human who enters this transaction of Jesus bearing the supplicants sins in exchange. But a part of the contract is that, given the power to repent effectively, the one applying for forgiveness will do so, and quickly. We are to trade our sins in exchange for being credited with His righteousness. But we must firmly abandon our sin habits "at the Cross" (the moment of agreement with God's offer), and leave them there.
If we are not willing to do this, either the preacher has not made the Gospel clear, or he has preached another gospel, and the hearer does not understand the nature of the exchange, and hence has not subscribed to a saving transaction. Having been (wrongly) assured of salvation by a phony preacher after saying a little prayer, he then just resumes his old life thinking he has eternal security, when he does not have or possess eternal life.
If then being reprimanded for keeping on this old behavior, he responds with the retort, "But I was saved at XYZ's revival. I've said the prayer. I've been baptized. I go to church. I've apologized and it's none of your business." when he mistakenly believes in something that was never effected, he is headed for Hell and the Lake of Fire. He only beieves in his own belief, not in the Christ of the Bible.
Prov. 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
A perfect example of this state is the adamant Pharaoh, who confessed twice:
Ex. 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
Ex. 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
That is confession of sins, without repentance from and ceasing of them. Woe to the preacher who uses the kind of excuse given in your responses to this issue.
If you're in a congregation where the ones professing Christ and are baptized into the church, then simply afterward go back into their old lives without a sign of repentance or living a new life, without church discipline, then get out of it, for it is sending people to Hell through their doors.
for the second quote from Exodus, replace it with the following:
Ex. 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.
[[Only The Lord has the authority to sort it out and be the final judge. Despite what we witness we do not know the full circumstances or true state of any one persons mind.]]
We do have clues- like you said- people witnessed the man OBEYING God’s commands even though He was a drunk- He obeyed very likely out of love for the poor- and likely love for God too- His actions revealed what was in his heart- (By their fruit ye shall know them)
I posted I believe in this thread some criteria for ‘obeying God” that lordship Salvationists seem to ignore- and many of the commands of the Lord ARE practiced by by even hardened backsliders- (IE: Love one another, feed the poor, help others etc)
Even though someone isn’t living in total surrender like lordship Salvationists demand, they ARE still obeying commands of God-
This is why I keep asking lordship Salvationists just how many commands one needs to obey in order to be considered saved by lordship Salvationists, and where the ‘cutoff point’ is for not obeying and ‘losing salvation’- I never get an answer
[[The obvious point is that the person who is carnal; that is, one who claims to be saved, yet lives a habitual lifestyle of carnality without repentance is unsaved,]]
nonsense- IF what you say is true, then Paul is a liar and no one in the church of Corinthians was saved, nor was King David, nor was Lot, nor was Sampson, nor was... on and on and on it goes-
[[agreeing with God concerning our sins, and abandoning them]]
How many sins have you abandoned? Did King David abandon his sins? Nope! Did the church at corinth abandon their sins when they were saved? Nope!
Sorry- but Lordship salvation DENIES the word of God
[[You cannot use Abraham, David, Samson to illustrate the covenant under which God deals with humans today]]
Lol- ok- Psssst- early believers had faith in the coming Christ- that is what saved them- not their works look it up
[[We are to trade our sins in exchange for being credited with His righteousness.]]
Really? Point out in God’s word where He or ANY apostle of prophet states such heresy?
[[Mt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.]]
For goodness sakes- you DO know this is talking about a hypothetical issue where ONLY people capable of complete sinlessness are able to enter heaven and that no such sinlessness exists in ANY person (hence the NEED for CHRIST’S sinlessness, right)-
Christ was explaining to the people who thought works could save them, that even the greatest teachers of ‘works based salvation’ were NOT going to enter the kingdom of heaven because their works were filth in the sight of the Lord
Christ was speaking to UNSAVED preachers of ‘religiosity’ - Scholars who based their salvation on their OWN works and OWN knowledge-
This is the danger of taking verses out of context and trying to apply htem to a theology that is unbiblical- it falls apart when examined in context- These scribes professed salvation, BUT they based their salvation on ERROR- they thought they could work their way to heaven, and Christ was using a hypothetical situation to inform them that unless they were absolutely perfect and sinless, they could NOT enter heaven- He was trying to tell them that the ONLY way they could become sinless was through faith in HIM and in HIM alone
[[Prov. 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
2Co_13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?]]
Neither verse has anything to do with losing salvation
[[1 Jn. 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not (persistently) commit sin; for his (God’s) seed (Word) remaineth in him (the saved person): and he (the saved person) cannot (habitually practice) sin (as a lifestyle, seen by all), because he is born of God. ]]
Psssst- look up 1 Corinthians sometime- either one book is Lying, OR there is another explanation to be had- We know that the bible is full of examples of backslidden Christians, carnal
Christians, and Christians living in sin (which you conveniently declare off limits in this discussion because it conflicts with the heresy of lordship salvation)
[[Ex. 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
That is confession of sins, without repentance from and ceasing of them.]]
For crying out loud- Pharoah was UNSAVED, as were his people- He was simply trying to AVOID punishment from God
I suggested to
Do you deny there is such a thing as a carnal Christian?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.