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Do Libertarians Really "Want a World Without Moral Judgments"?
Reason ^
| 03/22/2013
| Nick Gillespie
Posted on 03/22/2013 8:51:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
On March 15 in The New York Times, liberal journalist and author Richard Reeves wrote an op-ed about the new plan in New York City to dramatize the many negative effects of teen pregnancy on girls who give birth before graduating high school and outside of a stable two-parent unit. Billboards and other advertisements around the city, for instance, point out that unwed teen mothers are twice as likely to not finish high school as girls who don't give birth before graduating.
With many smart qualifications, Reeves makes a case for shaming regarding teen pregnancy and other behaviors, and he does it from a liberal POV:
A society purged of shame might sound good in theory. But it would be terrible in practice. We need a sense of shame to live well together. For those with liberal instincts, this is necessarily hard. But it is also necessary.
My issue is less with Reeves' views on public shaming per se and more on an aside he makes about libertarians:
Libertarians might want a world without moral judgments, in which teen pregnancy carries no stigma at all. And paternalists might want the state to enshrine judgments in law perhaps by raising the age of sexual consent or mandating contraception. True liberals, though, believe we can hold one another to moral account without coercion. We must not shy away from shame.
I submit to you that few statements are more wrong than saying "libertarians might want a world without moral judgments." From my vantage point, one of the things to which libertarianism is dedicated is the proliferation of moral judgments by freeing people up to the greatest degree possible to create their own ways of being in the world. To conflate the live and let live ethos at the heart of the classical liberal and libertarian project with an essentially nihilistic dismissal of pluralism and tolerance is a gigantic error. It's like saying that because religious dissenters want to abolish a single state church that they are anti-god.
As the anthropologist Grant McCracken argued in a 1998 Reason story called "The Politics of Plenitude," our world is characterized by a "quickening speciation" of social types and sub-cultures, a liberating reality that is typically mistaken for the end of the world and the end of all morality. McCracken notes that plenitude particularly aggrieves conservatives, because they mistake an urge to escape "a morality" for an attempt to abolish "all morality." He explains:
The right acts as if the many groups thrown off by plenitude harbor an anarchic tendency, that people have become gays, feminists, or Deadheads in order to escape morality. This is not the logic of plenitude. These people have reinvented themselves merely to escape a morality, not all morality. New communities set to work immediately in the creation of new moralities. Chaos does not ensue; convention, even orthodoxy, returns. Liminality is the slingshot that allows new groups to free themselves from the gravitational field of the old moralities they must escape. But liminality is almost never the condition that prevails once this liberation has been accomplished.
courtesy PBSReeves is no conservative. He's a devotee of John Stuart Mill and, I rush to add, has said many positive things about Reason over the years. But his characterization of libertarians as uninterested in moral judgments proceeds from a very conservative - and very profound - misunderstanding of what I think we are all about. This sort of thinking typically emanates from the right - how many of us have had conversations with conservatives who equate ending drug prohibition with a case not simply for occasional use of currently illegal drugs but for an absolute embrace of never-ending intoxication and stupefaction? - but apparently it harbors a home on the left as well. (Go here to read part of a debate I had with Jonah Goldberg a decade ago on the same basic topic).
Shame is certainly not the first thing that most libertarians I know reach for in high-minded policy discussions or less serious conversations. On the narrow question of reducing teen pregnancy - which has in any case reached historic lows over the past decades - it's far from clear the role the sort of public shaming enivisioned by New York authorities will play compared to, say, frank discussions of the harshly reduced opportunities faced by young mothers. Certainly, it may make certain policymakers and politicians feel good, but that is hardly any ground by which to analyze the efficacy of a given policy (to his credit, Reeves calls for a cost-benefit analysis himself).
But it's time to start swatting away random accusations of libertarians as nihilists simply because we don't sign on to every given moralistic agenda that is proposed or enacted in the name of the greater good. No less a buttoned-down character than Friedrich Hayek once wrote that "to live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one's concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends." The libertarian commitment to true pluralism and tolerance is not easy to maintain, but it remains exactly the sort of gesture that allows for differing moralities to flourish and, one hopes, new and better ways of living to emerge.
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: libertarianism; libertarians; morality
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To: GeronL
Libertarians make ethical judgements too, look how they attack those who dont agree with them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
True. Like post 67 for instance. Although I don’t know if that is a liberal attack on Social Conservatism.
Or a comment as to what liberals are full of.
81
posted on
03/22/2013 10:23:23 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: ClearCase_guy
“But, in general, I don’t see a lot of Libertarians trying to limit government so much on the economic side of things. It’s mostly: legalize drugs, open the borders, easy abortion, legal prostitution. Let’s do the fun stuff first.”
The reason you see those things is because that’s where libertarianism departs from conservatism. Reason, The Cato Institute, Lew Rockwell, etc... Check them out. To put it mildly, there is no lack of materials concerning economic matters. Lots about gun control, too.
82
posted on
03/22/2013 10:24:06 AM PDT
by
cdcdawg
To: PreciousLiberty
So you favor banning alcohol?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sure do. For everyone under age 21.
Next time - put some reason and effort into your remarks so you don’t look foolish.
83
posted on
03/22/2013 10:25:43 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: GeronL
You’re describing morally depraved activity which can occur with or without law that prohibits it (or accepts it.)
Your issue is with liberalism, not libertarianism which opposes statism.
In a world of anarchy, redress by vigilantism is perfectly suitable satisfying the moral code of conduct normally deemed necessary.
84
posted on
03/22/2013 10:26:05 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: ClearCase_guy
“If I were to include folks on the internet, I’d have far more than two-dozen people I could point to as embodiments of what IO think Libertarians are like.”
‘Far more than two dozen’ individuals being taken as representative of millions? LOL!
“And your response boils down to: “You’re wrong” with a scornful comment thrown in about my “vast” experience.”
The comment appears spot on, eh? :-)
“Thanks for proving my point so perfectly.”
Those words don’t mean what you think they mean.
To: PreciousLiberty
One of us is coming across as an a-hole who can’t have a polite conversation.
86
posted on
03/22/2013 10:28:05 AM PDT
by
ClearCase_guy
(The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
To: SeekAndFind
The term "libertarian" is being corrupted by those who want to substitute Government for social norms & strictures. The Founding Fathers were libertarians, and basically so defined themselves. But they certainly did not favor any form of social anarchy.
In the 20th Century, it was the big government advocates who undermined the established social norms; the social values that mandated individual responsibility & accountability; that stigmatized having children out of wedlock; that ostracized those who engaged in anti-social behavior, of many forms.
The confusion, here, also reflects in part the effects of over-dependence on Government. People have the ridiculous notion that only via big-Government can we deal with anti-social behavior. This is because the big government crowd has basically undermined the whole effect of social stigmas, by suggesting that Government is society's only effective answer. It isn't, and wasn't.
William Flax [Truth Based Logic]
87
posted on
03/22/2013 10:28:27 AM PDT
by
Ohioan
To: Responsibility2nd
“Sure do. For everyone under age 21.
Next time - put some reason and effort into your remarks so you dont look foolish.”
Try reading what I wrote and making a real attempt at an argument. Alcohol and tobacco are both “drugs” and both “affect me and my nation”. Guns also have a real downside, and I’m sure with sufficiently draconian government intervention they could be eliminated. Or perhaps not, considering how “successful” the War On Some Drugs has been, at a cost in the trillions.
I’ll leave it to the others reading this to decide who “looks foolish”.
To: ClearCase_guy
“One of us is coming across as an a-hole who cant have a polite conversation.”
LOL! Yeah, the “a-hole” part is a dead giveaway!
To: Responsibility2nd
Government is inherantly liberal and secular.
The best way to be able to live a Christian life is to de-power the government.
We’ve tried your method, and it backfired. The liberals take over the government and use the powers granted to it to pesecute and destroy Christianity.
90
posted on
03/22/2013 10:34:13 AM PDT
by
TheThirdRuffian
(RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
To: PreciousLiberty
Try reading what I wrote and making a real attempt at an argument
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I read what you wrote. You called me a Prohibitionist and sneered at my conservative arguments. I’ve also read your other posts and what others have replied back to you.
My favorite reply directed at you?
You are “an a-hole who cant have a polite conversation.”
91
posted on
03/22/2013 10:36:58 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: TheThirdRuffian
Weve tried your method, and it backfired.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I see. Well, you know what? Try again. My method worked perfectly fine for about 190 years.
92
posted on
03/22/2013 10:39:35 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: Responsibility2nd
“I read what you wrote. You called me a Prohibitionist and sneered at my conservative arguments. Ive also read your other posts and what others have replied back to you.”
Once again you fail to provide an actual argument. Predictable, given your indefensible position.
“My favorite reply directed at you?
You are an a-hole who cant have a polite conversation.
I’m sure it is. It’s called an “ad hominem attack”, and in debate when you use it, it means “you lose”.
Another way of saying it is “attack the message, not the messenger”.
You will note I’ve not done anything of the sort in this thread.
To: SeekAndFind
Of course not. This is yet another attack on Libertarians and liberty oriented thinking. People who are trying to stereotype their political opponents, mostly from the left, assign all kinds of negative concepts to their opponents - true or not.
Many people who want less government realize that governments don't have much interest in encouraging responsible, moral behavior by citizens. That is the job of families, churches, and other institutions. Which is why government is so busy trying to undermine their authority and role in society.
Does anyone posting here really believe that the top priority of our current government leadership is to encourage and grow a more moral population capable of self government and self reliance so that the federal government can shrink its role in society?
Government shouldn't be in the business of creating morals, since as we have all seen they will seek to overturn the proven morality and substitute Marxism, National Socialism, eugenics, apartheid, single parent families, gay marriage, and an endless series of other bad ideas.
To: Responsibility2nd; GeronL
>> True. Like post 67 for instance.
I didn’t attack, GeronL. I rebuked the hyperbole.
95
posted on
03/22/2013 10:41:57 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: Responsibility2nd
“I see. Well, you know what? Try again. My method worked perfectly fine for about 190 years.”
Actually, no it didn’t.
Every time government got more powerful, it (and society) became more liberal. The statist approach fails every time, inevitably becoming a secular, liberal, shithole.
The times when government is cut back, society overall becomes more conservative and more Christian.
96
posted on
03/22/2013 10:43:01 AM PDT
by
TheThirdRuffian
(RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
To: Gene Eric
I wasn’t referring to you or a posting specifically
97
posted on
03/22/2013 10:44:25 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: GeronL
Understood. Included you as a courtesy on #95.
98
posted on
03/22/2013 10:51:38 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: Responsibility2nd
My method worked perfectly fine for about 190 years. You may not know it, but you are a libertarian! During the period of time you refer to many of the concepts of libertarian thinking were the basis for the operation of our government. And the founders and many citizens of the USA fervently believed that their personal morals and character, informed by their religion, were crucial to living well. So they relied on themselves to grow a nation.
The didn't need or institute a huge federal government, nor did they even bother to outlaw most drugs, nor did they have endless taxes, regulations, etc. And they certainly didn't feel the need to strictly restrict immigration, or require licenses and permits to do just about anything. Nor did they have many laws related to gun control. You could even own your own fighting ship armed with cannon as good as those on the US Navy frigates of the time.
To: SeekAndFind
Western Civilization is based upon the Ten Commandments. If we throw them out to create our own rules we will abolish Western Civilization. And do we really want to do that? Take a look at those societies that have abandoned or never really had the Ten Commandments; or just study the Nazi regime which was based on the idea of evolution and Darwinism. We can only succeed at all by living the Judeo/Christian Ideal. What we are witnessing today is the decline and fall of American(Western) Civilization.
100
posted on
03/22/2013 10:55:24 AM PDT
by
RichardMoore
(There is only one issue- Life: dump TV and follow a plant based diet)
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