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Do Libertarians Really "Want a World Without Moral Judgments"?
Reason ^
| 03/22/2013
| Nick Gillespie
Posted on 03/22/2013 8:51:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
On March 15 in The New York Times, liberal journalist and author Richard Reeves wrote an op-ed about the new plan in New York City to dramatize the many negative effects of teen pregnancy on girls who give birth before graduating high school and outside of a stable two-parent unit. Billboards and other advertisements around the city, for instance, point out that unwed teen mothers are twice as likely to not finish high school as girls who don't give birth before graduating.
With many smart qualifications, Reeves makes a case for shaming regarding teen pregnancy and other behaviors, and he does it from a liberal POV:
A society purged of shame might sound good in theory. But it would be terrible in practice. We need a sense of shame to live well together. For those with liberal instincts, this is necessarily hard. But it is also necessary.
My issue is less with Reeves' views on public shaming per se and more on an aside he makes about libertarians:
Libertarians might want a world without moral judgments, in which teen pregnancy carries no stigma at all. And paternalists might want the state to enshrine judgments in law perhaps by raising the age of sexual consent or mandating contraception. True liberals, though, believe we can hold one another to moral account without coercion. We must not shy away from shame.
I submit to you that few statements are more wrong than saying "libertarians might want a world without moral judgments." From my vantage point, one of the things to which libertarianism is dedicated is the proliferation of moral judgments by freeing people up to the greatest degree possible to create their own ways of being in the world. To conflate the live and let live ethos at the heart of the classical liberal and libertarian project with an essentially nihilistic dismissal of pluralism and tolerance is a gigantic error. It's like saying that because religious dissenters want to abolish a single state church that they are anti-god.
As the anthropologist Grant McCracken argued in a 1998 Reason story called "The Politics of Plenitude," our world is characterized by a "quickening speciation" of social types and sub-cultures, a liberating reality that is typically mistaken for the end of the world and the end of all morality. McCracken notes that plenitude particularly aggrieves conservatives, because they mistake an urge to escape "a morality" for an attempt to abolish "all morality." He explains:
The right acts as if the many groups thrown off by plenitude harbor an anarchic tendency, that people have become gays, feminists, or Deadheads in order to escape morality. This is not the logic of plenitude. These people have reinvented themselves merely to escape a morality, not all morality. New communities set to work immediately in the creation of new moralities. Chaos does not ensue; convention, even orthodoxy, returns. Liminality is the slingshot that allows new groups to free themselves from the gravitational field of the old moralities they must escape. But liminality is almost never the condition that prevails once this liberation has been accomplished.
courtesy PBSReeves is no conservative. He's a devotee of John Stuart Mill and, I rush to add, has said many positive things about Reason over the years. But his characterization of libertarians as uninterested in moral judgments proceeds from a very conservative - and very profound - misunderstanding of what I think we are all about. This sort of thinking typically emanates from the right - how many of us have had conversations with conservatives who equate ending drug prohibition with a case not simply for occasional use of currently illegal drugs but for an absolute embrace of never-ending intoxication and stupefaction? - but apparently it harbors a home on the left as well. (Go here to read part of a debate I had with Jonah Goldberg a decade ago on the same basic topic).
Shame is certainly not the first thing that most libertarians I know reach for in high-minded policy discussions or less serious conversations. On the narrow question of reducing teen pregnancy - which has in any case reached historic lows over the past decades - it's far from clear the role the sort of public shaming enivisioned by New York authorities will play compared to, say, frank discussions of the harshly reduced opportunities faced by young mothers. Certainly, it may make certain policymakers and politicians feel good, but that is hardly any ground by which to analyze the efficacy of a given policy (to his credit, Reeves calls for a cost-benefit analysis himself).
But it's time to start swatting away random accusations of libertarians as nihilists simply because we don't sign on to every given moralistic agenda that is proposed or enacted in the name of the greater good. No less a buttoned-down character than Friedrich Hayek once wrote that "to live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one's concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends." The libertarian commitment to true pluralism and tolerance is not easy to maintain, but it remains exactly the sort of gesture that allows for differing moralities to flourish and, one hopes, new and better ways of living to emerge.
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: libertarianism; libertarians; morality
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To: John Valentine
My statement is based on my interpretation of the article.
61
posted on
03/22/2013 10:02:36 AM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
To: John Valentine; Tax-chick
There are libertarians who think that way. There are libertarians who act as if it is perfectly normal for people to be having sex with their own small children too. It definitely fits into the libertarian worldview like a hand in a glove. “What, you want to deny us this with the hand of the almighty state? You authoritarians!”
Libertarianism is a Utopian dream that can never be realized while civilization exists
62
posted on
03/22/2013 10:02:53 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: SeekAndFind
Since there’s so much confusion on these matters:
Libertarian is not the same as anarchist. Liberals love this confusion (and some “conservatives” around here). Limited government is not the absence of government.
Libertarian is not the same as atheist. It’s amazing that it needs to be said, but apparently it does.
Libertarian is not the same as Objectivist. One can be both. I suppose an Objectivist would almost have to be a libertarian, but not vice versa.
Libertarian is not the same as libertine. Again, it’s amazing that this needs to be said, but it does. I don’t want a government that wastes its time and resources worrying about what two (or more) adults voluntarily do behind closed doors on private property. I assure you, I really don’t want to participate.
63
posted on
03/22/2013 10:03:54 AM PDT
by
cdcdawg
To: Responsibility2nd
It’s the libertarian position to let the private owner of the business do what he or she wants.
It also happens to be the conservative position -— except for statist conservatives who would want to punish the hotels for renting to sodomites.
64
posted on
03/22/2013 10:04:10 AM PDT
by
TheThirdRuffian
(RINOS like Romney, McCain, Dole are sure losers. No more!)
To: JustSayNoToNannies
No, I advocate for the liberty of adults to use drugs if they choose. Do you advocate for the liberty of adults to murder if they choose
My personal conviction is that I and every other adult should be free to choose whether or not to use drugs, and that the right choice for me is to not use drugs.
Now understand that using drugs is a moral issue. Like murder or stealing. You use drugs, or murder or steal and guess what? That affects me and our nation. And because you support a law making dope smoking legal, don't be suprised when they pass a law making abortion legal.
Oops. They already have.
You are a liberal and a hypocrite.
65
posted on
03/22/2013 10:07:23 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: SeekAndFind
Substituting the non-coercion principle for morality is a rejection of ethics. It destroys any explicit ethical standard. Since ethics is necessary and unavoidable, a gap is left. The void must be filled, though. To paraphrase Ayn Rand, there is no choice about having a moral standard. The only question is whether it is left implicit and contradictory, or made explicit and rational. Substituting the non-coercion principle for ethics is an attempt to deny this need. The attempt must fail, though. Ignoring the need won’t make it go away; it just leaves you without control.
66
posted on
03/22/2013 10:08:21 AM PDT
by
wolfman
To: GeronL
>> There are libertarians who act as if it is perfectly normal for people to be having sex with their own small children too.
Gratuitous bullshit.
67
posted on
03/22/2013 10:08:52 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: Responsibility2nd
There is nothing in the libertarian philosophy where they LIMIT anything to adults. When they say things like that, it is to make themselves sound reasonable. They have no intention of limiting drugs and sexual perversions to adults in the long run.
68
posted on
03/22/2013 10:09:13 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: Gene Eric
Those libertarians are around. They are correct that pure libertarianism doesn’t limit anything to adults. LIMIMTING it to adults is not libertarian.
69
posted on
03/22/2013 10:10:21 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: Responsibility2nd
Now you are just trolling.
70
posted on
03/22/2013 10:11:02 AM PDT
by
Durus
(You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
To: JustSayNoToNannies
Does that make them wrong about limited government? Short answer: No. They are not wrong.
I'm all about collaboration and building bridges. I see lots of problems with society but they break into two camps:
1) Social problems -- some people behave irresponsibly (they don't work, they don't care for their children, they take drugs, etc.)
2) Economic problems -- government taxes people, spends money on irresponsible people, and creates an environment where personal responsibility and hard work don't lead to success as much as they should.
I think the second problem should be attacked first. Limit the government charity. Cut the taxes. Abandon irresponsible people. Sink or swin: personal responsibility should be mandatory.
Once government is limited in that way (no longer a crutch) then I am all in favor of lifting rules on raising children, taking drugs, etc. Maybe it's OK if "anything goes" -- so long as the person making those decisions is fully responsible for the outcomes.
But, in general, I don't see a lot of Libertarians trying to limit government so much on the economic side of things. It's mostly: legalize drugs, open the borders, easy abortion, legal prostitution. Let's do the fun stuff first.
And THEN we'll try to take away the free money and social goodies which allow people to behave in any way they like.
I say that's backwards. It won't work. Libertines will just never be willing to move on ther Phase 2 and get rid of the EBT cards, the subsidized housing, and the government healthcare and retirement accounts.
I want to limit government quite drastically. But the order in which that is done is very important. And starting with the fun stuff is the wrong approach.
71
posted on
03/22/2013 10:12:04 AM PDT
by
ClearCase_guy
(The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
To: ClearCase_guy
“Ever see a Libertarian discuss religion?”
Yes.
“Very rude. Very loud. No nuance. No real discussion. Just shouting down the other person because they’re stupid and moralistic and evil and don’t worship the flying spaghetti monster. Ridicule. Scorn. Derision.”
No.
Anecdotal stories of your ‘vast’ experience with libertarians mean nothing. Just out of curiosity, how many actual individuals are we discussing here?
Here’s a hint: there are plenty of libertarians who aren’t atheists.
To: wolfman
Libertarians make ethical judgements too, look how they attack those who don’t agree with them.
73
posted on
03/22/2013 10:12:15 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: ClearCase_guy
Limit the government charity. Cut the taxes. Abandon irresponsible people. Sink or swin: personal responsibility should be mandatory.I agree. Private-pay or private charity, on everything from medical care to education to food to housing.
74
posted on
03/22/2013 10:16:27 AM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
To: Responsibility2nd
“Now understand that using drugs is a moral issue. Like murder or stealing. You use drugs, or murder or steal and guess what? That affects me and our nation.”
So you favor banning alcohol? (And tobacco, and aspirin, and...?)
How very interesting to run across a Prohibitionist in 2013. I suppose you favor banning those evil guns as well, eh?
To: GeronL
Your absurd caricature of libertarianism is of course absurd. You intended it to be.
But you have positioned your fictional libertarian position so far outside reality that it loses as force of argument.
Let me put it to you this way: I know of self-styled Christians who also think it right and proper for them to have sex with children. Would it then be reasonable or meaningful for me to ascribe that aberrant belief to Christians in general? I am quite sure you would object, despite their insistence that they were following the command of Almighty God, who is beyond question.
Similarly, although you might find an aberrant individual asserting the right to have sex with children, and that person self-identifies as a libertarian, you have no basis whatsoever to ascribe his deviancy to all libertarians.
Again, I accuse you of setting up an absurd sort of libertarianism to attack. Of course, you are free to do so... but you shouldn’t expect too many people to pay you much mind.
76
posted on
03/22/2013 10:18:38 AM PDT
by
John Valentine
(Deep in the Heart of Texas)
To: TheThirdRuffian
It also happens to be the conservative position -— except for statist conservatives who would want to punish the hotels for renting to sodomites.
And when has that ever happened? I ask this because I'm constantly told I'm a nanny-stater if me and my ilk were elected then we would go all God-centric in this country and things would be even worse than the LBJ/Obama cultural/political realities that we live with today.
Bull-bleep. What are liberaltarians afraid of? For years, I've called for a return to a time when all 50 states had Sodomy Laws. When murder of the pre-born was illegal. When you couldn't say works like f--- and s--- on prime time TV. All us SoCons want is a return to a pre-LBJ times when the Constitution was adhered to and morals mattered. Unfortunately we've had liberals lie to us and tell us that the government is amoral.
And look where we are today.
77
posted on
03/22/2013 10:19:30 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: GeronL
Libertarians make ethical judgements too, look how they attack those who dont agree with them. Of course. The first sensible thing you have added to the discussion.
78
posted on
03/22/2013 10:19:43 AM PDT
by
John Valentine
(Deep in the Heart of Texas)
To: Durus
79
posted on
03/22/2013 10:20:03 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: PreciousLiberty
Aside from just telling me I'm wrong, you haven't really said much, have you? Quite typical for a Libertarian. I was asked for a "for instance". I provided that. I tried to articulate and explain my position. I didn't grab it out of thin air, I based in on my experience with perhaps two dozen personal relationships over 40 years time. If I were to include folks on the internet, I'd have far more than two-dozen people I could point to as embodiments of what IO think Libertarians are like.
And your response boils down to: "You're wrong" with a scornful comment thrown in about my "vast" experience.
Thanks for proving my point so perfectly.
80
posted on
03/22/2013 10:22:13 AM PDT
by
ClearCase_guy
(The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
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