Posted on 10/13/2009 8:10:10 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
O’Reilly told Dawkins”
you insist you can’t even mention it, that is fascism, sir.
Was he right? Is it constitutional/scientific to insist that only materialistic evolution can be taught?
See: O’Reilly vs. Atheist Author Richard Dawkins...
(Excerpt) Read more at uncommondescent.com ...
In science classes, we don’t teach the phlogiston theory, geocentric theory and flat Earth belief either. However, it’s common to mention these ideas in the context of the discussing the development of the respective scientific disciplines. Mentioning the “New Earth creationism” in the same context is fine with me. “Once people believed that when we burn things, a substance called phlogiston is released”.
I see government schools as an impossible to resolve conundrum. The only possible constitutional and freedom of conscience solution is to begin moving to a completely private system of K-12 schooling.
With regard to God, there are only two possible choices for any school to make: It must be either God-centered in its worldview or godless. Neither worldview is religious, politically, or culturally neutral in content or consequences.
It is impossible to have a religiously, culturally, and politically neutral school! Therefore...No matter what decisions a government schools will make concerning evolution, materialism, or hundreds of other issues, the government **will** establish the religious, cultural, and political worldview of some while actively undermining the worldview of others.
All government schools are a First Amendment and freedom of conscience abomination. Please...We must stop trying to reform the impossible. The only solution is to begin moving to a completely private system of education.
This is an important concept to understand. It is impossible to have a religiously, culturally, and politically neutral school.
If our Founding Fathers could have foreseen our system of government run, compulsory attendance, and compulsory funded government schools, they would have included complete separation of state and SCHOOL in the Constitution and all state constitutions.
ALL government schools are a freedom of conscience abomination!
Thanks for the ping!
I don't usually play the "Here's what the Founding Fathers' should have said in the Constitution" game ... but that would have been a good Amendment to the Constitution.
However...I do NOT support using the threat of government police action to force other citizens to pay for my worldview. This is exactly what government supported schools do.
There is really only one solution: We must begin moving to a completely private system of K-12 schooling.
Behind every government school stand armed police ready to sell at auction the property of, or arrest, imprison or even kill ( if sufficiently resistant), any citizen who refuses submit their will and freedom of conscience to the government school.
Then don’t teach anything, evolution included.
Those who need it for their degree can get it at the college level.
I completely agree. At the very least - a comprehensive system of school vouchers or tuition-related tax credits.
Opps. posted a reply meant for another thread.
Oops, I had a reply meant for another thread in the clipboard. I agree with the need for private schools, where kids are taught what their parents wish.
Believe whatever you want, but bring a scientific idea to the party or you don’t get to swim in the ‘scientific process’ pool.
And a voucher system for well preforming schools is a great idea IF the schools included do not have a religious curriculum/agenda.
Please read post #20 and #22.
But...It does seem that the staunchest defenders of evolution are also the firmest supporters of compulsory attendance and compulsion funded government owned and run schools.
The solution to all these curriculum wars ( evolution, materialism and thousands of other issue even things as mundane as phonics or cursive) is complete separation of **SCHOOL** and state!
We must begin privatizing all K-12 education.
IF the schools included do not have a religious curriculum/agenda.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gee! How broadminded of you! /s
And a voucher system for well preforming schools is a great idea IF the schools included do not have a religious curriculum/agenda.(TooFarGone)
TooFarGone's comment fully exposes the danger of vouchers and tax credits. There is still government involvement and the atheistic Marxist/fascists will do all in their power to use government force against freedom of conscience.
Could tax credits and vouchers be useful in building up a private school infrastructure. Yes, they could but only if it is a means to complete separation of SCHOOL and state.
By the way, TooFarGone, please read posts #20 and #22.
It is impossible to “determine” without crushing the freedom of conscience and First Amendment Rights of our citizens.
Please read post #20 and #22. These posts explain why this is so.
The only possible solution that respects our First Amendment Rights, an inalienable right bequeath by God ( or part of the human condition, if one is atheist), is to have complete separation of SCHOOL and state!
The solution is to move to a completely private system of K-12 education.
However...It does seem that those who support evolution are the biggest defenders of compulsory attendance, compulsory funded, police enforce, government owned and run, K-12 schools. ( Gee! I wonder why that is?)
Why? The First Amendment is misrepresented by the Left, for the purpose of maintaining the monopoly for indoctrinating the young generation. The Amendment states that the government cannot impose religion on the people. But the second part of the Amendment expressly reads that the gov't cannot interfere with the free exercise of religious beliefs either. Excluding religious schools violates the second clause of the I Amendment. At the same time, making religious schools eligible does not violate the first clause, because vouchers recipients are not forced to send their kids to religious schools.
Ignorance isn't an answer either.
I think you are right.
However...It does seem that those who support evolution are the biggest defenders of compulsory attendance, compulsory funded, police enforce, government owned and run, K-12 schools. ( Gee! I wonder why that is?)
My observation has been that the vast majority of people support compulsory public education.
Yet the vouchers/credits are the necessary milestone. The government has created a class of people dependent (or believing that they are dependent) on government services. If we propose a fully private system, we will expose ourselves to the populist argument that we "only care for the rich people". Of course, it's nonsense, but we can't respond to such argument with patiently teaching the basics of economy - it would be impractical.
Vouchers/credits is a good enough solution, providing that the system is universal and the parents can choose whatever schools they want. And it's a "marketable" idea, allowing us to counter the Left's populism with the following reasoning: With the vouchers, the good, private schools will become affordable. Not only the elites will be able to send their kids to safe schools, where they can excel academically. Inner city people or rural folks deserve good education too!
It is likely impossible to move directly to a completely private system. I support vouchers and tax credits if they can be used to do two things:
1) build a private school infrastructure.
In my county their are **no** private schools. Why would their be? The government is running a price-fixed monopoly that is giving education away for the price of “free”. If private CEOs colluded like this they would soon be in prison, but somehow it is morally and ethically OK for the government to destroy the private school market. ( Go figure! Geeze!)
2)If vouchers and tax credits can gradually be reduced so that parents take on the full responsibility of educating their own children, then I would support this. Ideally vouchers or tax credits would be used only for the poorest, and in a completely ideal world, charity would educate the poor.
Unfortunately we see what Pell Grants and government subsidized students loans have done to college and university tuition. It hasn't made the cost of college cheaper. Every time Pell Grants or student loans are increased the colleges and universities raise their tuition. And...Colleges and universities have powerful lobbyists to promote their interests. We would likely see the same phenomena if we had universal vouchers and tax credits for K-12 education.
Yes, of course they do! Why wouldn't they?
Just by attending school, children learn every day that government can and will take money from their neighbor to pay for a service that their parents want for **free**! This is a **daily** object lesson in, and direct experience with, socialism! And...Their teachers continually teach them that it is their “right” to have a taxpayer paid education, and teach them the lie that government education is neutral.
The last states enacted government school laws in the early 1900s. My mother is 96. There were still states in this nation who did **not** have state wide compulsory schools at the time my parents were born. So,...This idea of government schools really isn't that old. However, there are very few people alive today who can remember a time without government schools.
Even staunch conservatives are utterly incapable of imagining a world without government schools, believe government schools existed since the day Columbus discovered America, believe government schools can be reformed, and simply do not understand that **all** government schools promote a non-neutral religious worldview of some kind.
But...To get back to the theme of the thread:
The atheistic liberal/Marxists are the strongest defenders of government schools ( and this includes the atheistic materialistic evolutionists). Of course they do! The government schools are using other people's money to indoctrinate our nation's children in their their annointed religious worldview.
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