Posted on 07/30/2009 8:35:25 PM PDT by Edward Watson
The entire birther argument, that Obama was actually born in Kenya instead of the US, making him ineligible for holding the office of the President of the US, is a spurious argument. It plays into Obama and the liberals hands - they want this to continue since it makes regular conservatives and opponents into fringe wackos.
Not one of us would've looked harder at his legitimacy than Hilary Clinton and the entire Clinton smear machine during the Democratic primaries. That magic bullet would've given Hilary the presidency - and yet nada, bupkis.
There are many valid reasons to oppose Obama and the liberals, but his birthplace isn't one of them.
So... how do you know he didn’t have a sex change... ROTFLMAO @ that one LOL
More to the point, how do you know he wasnt originally adopted by his grandparents, or by Ann, The point is, we don’t know where this guy is from.
“More to the point, how do you know he wasnt originally adopted by his grandparents, or by Ann, The point is, we don’t know where this guy is from.”
No such adoption would require or even PERMIT an amendment to his birth certification that would change his PLACE OF BIRTH.
Think about it. The amendments are to change legal names or other items. You cannot just waltz into the records office 10 years later and amend the place of birth.
If you're tallying, I'm with you. Free Republic has been beyond hysterical of late.....shameful and embarrassing.
“LOL You don’t get that there is a difference between a long form and a short form. “
What you dont get is that there is only one form, the COLB, that you get when you request certification of birth information. That difference and claims to ‘long form’ is based on a confusion. there is an original birth certificate on file, but its not ‘long form’:
“When we spoke to a spokeswoman for the Hawaii Department of Health, she said too much was being made of the difference between the so-called “long” and “short” forms.
“They’re just words,” said spokeswoman Janice Okubo. “That (what was posted on the Internet) is considered a birth certificate from the state of Hawaii.”
“There’s only one form of birth certificate,” she said, and it’s been the same since the 1980s. Birth certificates evolve over the decades, she said, and there are no doubt differences between the way birth certificates looked when Obama was born and now.
“When you request a birth certificate, the one you get looks exactly like the one posted on his site,” she said. “That’s the birth certificate.”
As for the theory that Obama’s original birth certificate might show he was foreign-born, Okubo said the “Certification of Live Birth” would say so. Obama’s does not. Again, it says he was born in Honolulu.”
“Things like: his grandmother said he was born in Kenya”
Another birther myth, see #879.
LOL
I have my short form COLB and I can order my Long form COLB as well. I have a photo copy of it though. I have posted both.
There are two forms right there.
Any Amendments are separate forms. Adoption papers are also separate forms. Court orders are separate forms. All of those could be included with Vital Statistics in regards to getting a Copy of a COLB. The COLB’s do not indicate how many forms are in a file. They do not indicate if there are any amendments.
Okubo has made several different statements that directly contradict each other.
She is saying that his COLB states he was born in Honolulu. She CAN NOT BY LAW state what his long form says. Or what any Amendments say.
Magic 8-ball says: Try again.
See my #874. It’s pretty settled IMHO in terms of how courts/SCOTUS would think (if you are born a US citizen, you are ‘natural-born citizen’)... “OTOH, it never has been specifically and explicitly held, so it gives some space for various theories.”
A SCOTUS ruling would be needed to fully settle it.
All legal authority in this country is derived from the Constitution, not de-facto acceptance by the people. The people will accept many things if they are uninformed about the constitutionality of such. Acceptance, or rather inaction, doesn't provide legal authority.
In this case, concerning the meaning of “natural born”, we have a consensus permitting Obama his qualification.
There was no consensus that permitted Obama's qualification. The failure of public officials to demand and examine Obama's credentials does not constitute a consensus. The failure of law enforcement to catch a criminal and the lack of public outcry regarding the crime doesn't constitute a consensus that there was no crime.
In the face of that, its very unlikely that any court is going to take this case.
If and when the courts are presented with a properly constructed case that presents a question of first impression and meets the legal requirements of standing and subject matter jurisdiction, they'll hear the case. To date, no such case has been presented.
And even if one did, to define the law, they would still not find against this consensus.
There is no consensus. The courts will rule according to the proper interpretation of the law, not according to popular opinion. If the courts ruled according to consensus, they either wouldn't have intervened in Bush v. Gore or they'd have ruled in Gore's favor.
The public has the basic facts, sufficient to this case - mother American, born in the USA
Those are hardly the basic facts and they are less than sufficient to make a determination regarding Obama's natural-born status. Those are simply the facts on which Obama wants the discussion to be focused.
You hold that this situation is unconstitutional.
Wrong. I hold that this situation is unsettled in the law and therefore requires a SCOTUS ruling. Yes, it is my personal opinion in light of my own research on the issue that Obama is ineligible, but if the SCOTUS ruled that he were eligible, I would accept the ruling. Likewise if we held a Constitutional Convention to remove the natural-born requirement and the states ratified the amendment, I would also accept that decision.
The South’s practices were legal.
Yes, until those practices were seen as immoral and unethical and ultimately overturned. Consensus didn't make those practices right.
Look, I don't want to get into the argument. I've steadfastly avoided the entire Obama birth certificate argument.
But, in response to your claim above, why is it that, when I request a copy of my original birth certificate from Oklahoma (for a passport application, e.g.), I get a photostatic copy of a form that is filled with typewritten or longhand entries? And when I request a certificate of live birth, I get a computer-generated copy that resembles Obama's COLB from Hawaii?
Rather obviously, they are two different things.
I am not saying there is not additional information in the files above and beyond what is in the COLB. What I am saying is that the place of birth *IS* in the COLB.
“I have my short form COLB and I can order my Long form COLB as well.” Hawaii? Again, maybe confusion due to terminology. State officials say there is one COLB and it has been that way for some number of years. If you have an original birth certificate, thats not ‘long form COLB’.
If indeed you can fill out a request form for a ‘long form COLB’ - something the state officials say you cannot do... be my guest, fill it out for Obama and send it to the White House! That would be a hoot!
“She is saying that his COLB states he was born in Honolulu. She CAN NOT BY LAW state what his long form says. Or what any Amendments say.”
She didnt. She said his ‘records’ show he was born in Hawaii. She has said precisely this:
“I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the Hawai’i State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records maintained on file by the Hawai’i State Department of Health verifying Barrack Hussein Obama was born in Hawai’i and is a natural-born American citizen. I have nothing further to add to this statement or my original statement issued in October 2008, over eight months ago.”
“when I request a copy of my original birth certificate from Oklahoma (for a passport application, e.g.), I get a photostatic copy of a form that is filled with typewritten or longhand entries? And when I request a certificate of live birth, I get a computer-generated copy that resembles Obama’s COLB from Hawaii?
Rather obviously, they are two different things.”
Yes, there are 2 different things. A few points:
1) How records are kept and things you request and what you get vary state-by-state, so its not clear you can do in Hawaii what you can do in OK.
2) what Hawaii state officials are saying is that there is no “long-form COLB”. There is just a COLB (like your computer-generated form). On their website, it looks like there is only one form you can request:
http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/vital_records.html
3) People have posted original birth certs from Hawaii, and they are different from the COLB that Obama presented and other COLBs from Hawaiians.
4) Obama’s birth certificate was filed between Aug 4 and Aug 13, 1961, when his birth announcement occured in the Honolulu Advertiser. We know this because the newspaper birth announcement, this one ...
http://whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/obama-1961-birth-announcement-from-honolulu-advertiser0000.gif
... was derived from vital records office filings. Further, the
5) What this means is that there are precisely 2 records of interest:
- The COLB - which Obama has already shared
- The original birth certificate, in the state of Hawaii files/records
Thus, IMHO it would be better to speak of “The Original 1961 Birth Certificate” as the document/record of interest. That is more precise and correct than “long form” this or that.
Seems to me that's dancing on the head of a pin. The "original 1961 birth certificate" is perhaps more precise. But it is also more-than-likely a "long form" -- i.e., with more information -- compared to the COLB.
I'll escape from the argument now, if you don't mind. My own view is that, yes, Obama was probably born in Hawaii and qualifies for the office. On the other hand, the expenditure of money and effort on behalf of his campaign suggests that there is something on the "long form" (forgive me) which he doesn't want us to know.
All in all, it's a tedious subject with, probably, little satisfaction to be gained therefrom. But if some prefer to continue the debate, I've no objection to it. There is almost certainly something there -- though it may not be what is expected.
I supplied three different YouTube links higher up in the thread. I suggest you listen to them well, then get back to me.
Er, if there is no law on the matter, as there isn’t, then we have consensus.
Acceptance is de facto legal authority. If the courts will not take such a case (and they won’t, no matter how you contruct this case), if the authorities will ignore it, if the politicians won’t act, and if the people don’t care, where is the authority that will oppose the consensus ? There is no higher authority that you can appeal to.
“Those are hardly the basic facts “
As far as the public is concerned, they are. What are they missing, citations from some eighteenth-century legal scholar ?
“I supplied three different YouTube links higher up in the thread. I suggest you listen to them well, then get back to me.”
I listened to them, and listened to this. Here is the FULL audio - 16 MINUTES not 5 minutes:
http://s16v.com/americasright/8167169.wma
I suggest you listen to it well.
It validates that the “Sarah Obama says Obama was born in Kenya” is a myth based on selective editing of the full interview. They cut off the video before the part where the translator realizes the mistake and then corrects McRae multiple times, saying “she says he was born in Hawaii”..
MCRAE: Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?
OGOMBE: Yes. She says, yes, she was, she was present when Obama was born.
MCRAE: When I come in December. I would like to come by the place, the hospital, where he was born. Could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?
OGOMBE: No, Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America.
MCRAE: Whereabouts was he born? I thought he was born in Kenya.
OGOMBE: No, he was born in America, not in Mombasa.
MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was going to go by and see where he was born.
OGOMBE: Hawaii. Hawaii. Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii. In the state of Hawaii, where his father was also learning, there. The state of Hawaii.
Define the legal meaning of “natural born citizen” as it pertains to the constitutional qualifications for being the President of the US. Do you know what it means? Do you know why it matters that the American elite should be forced to obey that rule in the constitution?
I want to know what he's hiding. Why not just release it and be done with it? What's on there, and why continue to cling so doggedly to the short-form, no-detail image on FactCheck.org?
Analyzing Obama psychologically, the man takes himself very seriously. He is driven, it seems, by a felt need to compensate for deeply-held insecurity - a phenomena similar to that which drives many guys to super powerful sports cars and tough dogs. Hence, the god complex: "I won." Unlike Bush, this character is going to milk his term in the White House for every ounce of personal gain he can squeeze from it. He effects this by projecting an image of whatever he says (incl. the sparse short-form), goes.
No different from a lizard ballooning its neck or a cat arching her back and putting up her hair.
What's on the real BC is anyone's guess. Obama himself has created this fertile bed of speculation through his own secretive, my-way-or-the-highway persona. It is not the "birthers" who are to blame. It is Obama.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Point well taken. ROTFLOL.
It’s obvious to me that he’s doing this to distract us from his SOCIALIST “HEALTHCARE” PROGRAM.
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