Posted on 12/16/2007 11:15:52 PM PST by Mobile Vulgus
Mormons aren't Christians ...
... and other thoughts on religion and politics sure to get your blood boiling
Herewith, my views on religion and the politics of the present moment, with something to offend just about everyone:
1. Mormons aren't Christians. I don't mean that as a criticism, only as a descriptive phrase. When Mormons claim Jesus Christ as their savior, there's no reason to doubt their sincerity and good will, or even to deny that they are in some way followers of Christ. Yet Mormonism rejects foundational doctrines of traditional Christian orthodoxy, such that it is impossible to reconcile with normative Christianity.
2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?
3. Theologically, this is a big deal. But politically, so what? Mormons vote like Southern Baptists and come down on the same side of most issues of public morality like conservative Christians do. If you're a socially conservative lawmaker, wouldn't you rather have a Mormon in your legislative foxhole than a Kennedy-style cafeteria Catholic or progressive mainline Protestant? I'm no Romney fan, but is there really no meaningful political difference between Good-Mormon Mitt and Bad-Catholic Rudy, to say nothing of Liberal-Protestant Hillary?
4. There are plenty of good reasons for conservative Christians not to vote for Mr. Romney, but his religious beliefs are not among them. Do Christians want to be in the position of rejecting a candidate whose political views and moral values they agree with, solely because they don't like his religion?
(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...
I think that at least part of what you are saying is that liturgical forms are not essential to worship. I agree with this, but it can be a great assistance to the process. If you are saying that the writings and thinking on this subject for 2000 years is of no importance to your ability to have a meaningful relationship with God, i would disagree.
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"?
Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?
And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him."
Of the angels he says,
"He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire."
But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed But you are the same, and your years will have no end."
And to which of the angels has he ever said,
"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? The answer is - none of them.
The Hebrews passage refers to the universality of the Fatherhood of God in a generic sense - much like the passage in James where God is called "Father of the heavenly lights," (James 1:17) But this doesn't mean that the stars and comets are literally and physically "children" of God. Or think of when Paul addressed the Athenians and said:
"For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man's design and skill.
Paul was not saying that all human beings are the children of God, but that, being that all people came from Adam, and Adam is called a son of God (in Luke), then all people are the offspring of God. The terms "child" or "children" of God are reserved for select individuals.
Both Jesus and Paul, in several place, are explicit that not all people are "children of God".
Jesus in John 8:
"They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him.When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
And look what Paul says in Romans 9:
"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
But the wonderful mystery that Paul speaks to further in the chapter is that people who are not God's children can become God's children by the new birth and faith in Jesus Christ. They can be adopted into the family of God.
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
That's as far as I can get tonight. I'll have to post more tomorrow
It has been many years since I read “Mere Christianity,”as evidenced by the act that my paperback copy is a 1979 imprint and is turning yellow. Looking at it casually, I gather that he has not the slightest interst in your “concern.” He is not “proving” anything in this book but simply explaining what traditional Chirstians, whether Catholic or Baptist believe. I think you are misled by a rhetorical flourish (pp.55- 56 of my copy). He has spent some time on the great war that is going on in history, between good and evil, and at the end basically dismisses the view of liberal Christianity as a great moral teacher. The tone of the New Testament does not convey any such mushiness. The figure presented by the writers is not such person. The person of Jesus as understood by traditional Christianity is something other than the Jesus of Jefferson’s Bible. From the perspective of the atheist, such as Lewis once was, this person is a loon., or someone to whom absurdities are attributed. . From the perspective of the Christian, which Lewis now is, he is God.
That’s deceptive language friend.
Who created the Mormon God - and is the Mormon God sovereign over that entity or being?
Is the Mormon God sovereign over everything that has ever, or will ever exist - i.e. the entire and complete set of everything, excluding himself??
Unbelievable that we have now mobilized religious bigotry for political gain....shameful.
“They are commonly acknowledged by most Christian denominations,”
No, they do not believe in one Church. Catholic or otherwise. Protestants believe many different things, but vary on there concept of “Church”. Jesus himself said it was where two or more people gather in His name. Southern Baptists each church(small “c”) is its own communion. The members hire a Pastor and call him “Brother”. They acknowledge no priests, bishops, cardinals, or Popes. If the Pastor commits a crime or just does a poor job, he’s fired. The “Convention” is where individual churches come together. The convention is subservient to the churches, not the other way around. Baptists live democracy in their faith and need no one to intercede for them or to take their confession. They become baptised when they are old enough to make the decision on their own. They have a direct relationship with God.
“Since the perpetual virginity of Mary is accepted by most Christian churches”
Perpetual virginity is an extra-Biblical, Catholic concept. Most other churches see no reason or evidence for her perpetual virginity.
“I ask the lurkers If you want to know about Chevy trucks do you go to a Ford salesmen?”
With all due respect, If you want to know about Chevy trucks do you go to a used car salesman or a mechanic? You seem to indicate that you are completely objective about these issues. But you know that is not true. You have a bias, I have a bias. I think we can settle that now.
The problem with the link you posted is that official LDS doctrine is changing - just like it changed in 1978 when blacks were allowed in the priesthood - or on the topics of polygamy, or caffine, or whether Adam was God Almighty. What was Mormon doctrine yesterday might not be Mormon doctrine tomorrow. And Mormons are know for not being entierly forthcoming about all of their beliefs. As proof, I offer you this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
I have found no statement by a Mormon using the word “sex”. But when McConkie says, “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” what are we to infer? He is saying that God sired Jesus “in the same way” that you, DelphiUser, will or have sired children. Hard to get around that. Especially with his insistence on the “literal” nature of the passage.
Unbelievable that we have now mobilized religious bigotry for political gain....shameful.Who's "we"? I'm sure not doing that!
Southern Baptists = 16.3 million. Roman Catholics + Eastern Orthodox = 1.5 billion.
You win. This is an argument that can't be refuted. Your dad can beat up mine.
Please note my previous posts, I have been describing what Christians overwhelmingly believe. In general I have not been emphasizing such points as what is true or correct. If 16 million Christians believe one thing, and 1 billion believe another, if would be incorrect to describe the beliefs of the 16 million as describing the beliefs of all. As I said in another post, I am making descriptive rather than prescriptive arguments.
Yes, we have the Great Commission, but we also have the "peaceable fruit of righteousness," among these "patience" and "hope" ... William Buckley was asked by some dizzy news-reader "how do you feel" on the night Billy Clinton was elected president.
"As a Christian," he said, "I am forbidden to despair."
We are told to be ready in and out of season to "defend the hope that is in us" by Paul and described by Christ as "a city on a hill" that cannot be hidden."
Of course we have to carry the message, our behavior changes daily in the never-fading light of the reality of God in Christ manifest in our hearts, and that makes us a contrast to the darkness around us.
I didn't mean we can be indifferent to the World, just waiting on the roof for His return. As you say, we are to speak the truth in love which is almost always in opposition to the World Spirit of whatever age we are living in, and in the language of those to whom we preach the truth. And each individual who is activated by God's Word spoken by us is, his or herself, of infinite value. If one is saved from most who are not, the remainder who do not or cannot hear, "waxing worse and worse," that's only the big picture to the world, not to God.
That said, and many such similar things, I think often of the words of David, (Psalm 2) "He who sits in the Heavens, laughs."
I just don't see God facing an election, worried about his standing in the polls, so to speak. "Let every man be a liar, and God true."
In my experience, people who are confident in any belief system do not worry about winning the argument, or even of the confidence in those who are convinced of error. We aren't threatened because, after all, God is not threatened. God continues on and on, with ot without the agreement of his creation.
Van Reesbrok, a hundred years before Luther, the founder of the Breathren of the Common Life, wrote, "the eye which the light of God hath clarified remains open, and we may close it nevermore."
Your early leaders sure wrote thinks that seem to go against what you've written here.
"If I ever pass into heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of Prophet Joseph"
--Brigham Young
(JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224).
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
And that is how?
Using all of the OTHER lds scriptures to explain it?
“I am ignorant. What is “blow”?”
It’s the stuff ya snort when ya pick up an 8-ball.
C’mon man; get with it!
It's too bad you equate the first statement with an ATTACK.
You immediately go into flee mode and leave the battle field.
You'll never convince anyone who is on the fence that your way is the right way if you cannot defend your belief.
Your faith in your organiation should be strong enough that you could actually READ what the other fellows viewpoints are; and then, perhaps be better equipped to stay in discussions a bit longer.
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