Mormons Aren't Christians (Columnist also calls Luther a heretic)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 12/16/07 | Rod Dreher

[DelphiUser]

As soon as I have time to sift through this drivel of yours I’ll respond at length. Suffice it to say it hardly helps you.

Fine, knock yourself out.

Let me free you from a delusion you seem to be laboring under... I don't care what you think about me personally. I wish you actually understood what I am saying.

Tell you what, damn me to hell first to get that out of the way, then read what I am saying with an open mind.

Good for you?

[DelphiUser]

BBL8R

[Frumanchu]

Only God knows the heart. Not you. You do not know who is a Christian and who is not. That is not your place.

As I said previously, I am not judging whether or not you are a Christian in the soteriological sense. That matter is between you and God. What I AM doing is judging whether or not you are one in the theological/doctrinal sense, and it absolutely is our place to do so. Scripture is pretty clear on how to deal with those who preach a false Christ and a false Gospel.

I love my Church. I am a Mormon. There is no paid clergy in my Church. Is that what is so upsetting?

What?? That has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the false Gospel promoted by the false prophets of the LDS church.

[Mr. Jeeves]

"Religions are divisive and quarrelsome. They are a form of one-upmanship because they depend upon separating the "saved" from the "Damned", the true believers from the heretics, the in-group from the out-group. Even religious liberals play the game of "we're-more-tolerant than you." Furthermore, as systems of doctrine, symbolism, and behavior, religions harden into institutions that must command loyalty, be defended, and kept "pure", and - because all belief is fervent hope, and thus a cover-up for doubt and uncertainty - religions must make converts. The more people who agree with us, the less nagging insecurity about our position. In the end one is committed to being a Christian or a Buddhist come what may in the form of new knowledge. New and indigestible ideas have to be wangled into the religious tradition, however inconsistent with its original doctrines, so that the believer can still take his stand and assert, "I am first and foremost a follower of Christ/Mohammed/Buddha, or whomever." Irrevocable commitment to any religion is not only intellectual suicide; it is positive unfaith because it closes the mind to any new vision of the world. Faith is, above all, open-ness - an act of trust in the unknown.

"An ardent Jehovah's Witness once tried to convince me that if there were a God of love, he would certainly provide mankind with a reliable and infallible textbook for the guidance of conduct. I replied that no considerate God would destroy the human mind by making it so rigid and unadaptable as to depend on one book, the Bible, for all the answers. For the use of words, and thus of a book, is to point beyond themselves to a world of life and experience that is not mere words or even ideas. Just as money is not real, consumable wealth, books are not life. To idolize scriptures is like eating paper currency." -- Alan Watts, "The Book", 1966

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This thread has shown us some wonderful examples of arguments over who has the better rulebook, but it is devoid of spiritual truth.

[Tao Yin]

Being a “Christian” has had a particular meaning for 2000 years. It does not mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.

More like 1700 years. The Arians were considered Christians until the Council of Nicaea. Arians believed that Jesus was a created being. Sounds familiar.

[Frumanchu]

Let me free you from a delusion you seem to be laboring under... I don't care what you think about me personally. I wish you actually understood what I am saying.

Let me free YOU from a delusion YOU seem to be laboring under...I have no interest in condemning you personally. I simply wish to expose the belief system of your church as being a false Gospel leading people astray from the Truth.

Tell you what, damn me to hell first to get that out of the way, then read what I am saying with an open mind. Good for you?

Let me say it again...I have no interested in condemning you personally. Your salvation individually is between you and God, and it remains to be seen whether 1 Cor 3:15 or Matt 7:21-23 will apply. To be sure, you address those who dare speak against you with a haughty sort of arrogance, but I'm more interested in exposing the content itself as being sorely lacking when it comes to the truth.

[DelphiUser]

Let me free YOU from a delusion YOU seem to be laboring under...I have no interest in condemning you personally.

I simply wish to expose the belief system of your church as being a false Gospel leading people astray from the Truth.

How do you know we are wrong? Don't get on a theological high horse, really, How do you know?

I know I am right because I Prayed to God about the Book of Mormon, and in response received a witness from God that the Book of Mormon was true, and that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and is my savior.
I read the Bible, so I knew that according to the Bible 1st John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

I prayed and God answered my prayer and told me what to do. What exactly do you think you can add to that or that you have that will trump that? I am doing what I have been told to do by God himself. How do you know you are doing what God wants you to?

Let me say it again...I have no interested in condemning you personally.

You could have (and did) fooled me.

Your salvation individually is between you and God, and it remains to be seen whether 1 Cor 3:15 or Matt 7:21-23 will apply.

I agree, there are no guarantees on going to heaven, it's what's in your heart, not the name plate on your church that matters.

To be sure, you address those who dare speak against you with a haughty sort of arrogance,

It's on purpose, I tried being humble, and the anti's ran roughshod over me and my voice was not heard. I learned that if I get in peoples face, and they address me and I get to have some dialog before I am damned to hell by them. There is an old saying in business, you get what you measure, in business the only meaningful measure is money, on boards, it's response. Anti's here respond only to haughtiness and disdain, so that is what they get.

Your post was polite, so I am responding in kind, which kind of discussion do you want to have?

I'm more interested in exposing the content itself as being sorely lacking when it comes to the truth.

What I am saying is the truth.

From a strictly logical stand point, if we are discussing what I believe, whatever I state is true, when you disagree with what I state, you are wrong. If on the other hand we are discussing God's truth (the only truth IMHO that matters) then Neither one of us is going to "have it" to share, we have to get that from God. I will happily read anything you want and pray about it, if you will read the Book of Mormon and pray about it. Deal?

As for winning an argument on religion, My Dad once told me "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." It has saved me much angst here, I argue, but I don't expect to "win converts", I hope to get people to ask God, and he gets the converts.

Thanks for the opportunity for a civil post, and Merry Christmas to you.

[BackInBlack]

“one should not objectivize one’s opinions.”

Sure you’re on the right forum? Conservatives believe in arguing for truth rather than simply asserting that truth is a matter of opinion. Literary taste is one thing; logic — which is what I was referring to in Lewis’s work — is another.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“Anyway, going to bed soon, Talk to you later.”

DelphiUser - I’m sorry I haven’t responded to you yet. For the past few days I have been pressed for time. I am now headed out of town, but will be back after the 1st. I hope we can pick up again there. I have really enjoied the discussion.

I hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas.