Mormons Aren't Christians (Columnist also calls Luther a heretic)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 12/16/07 | Rod Dreher

[Mobile Vulgus]

Mormons aren't Christians ...

... and other thoughts on religion and politics sure to get your blood boiling

Herewith, my views on religion and the politics of the present moment, with something to offend just about everyone:

1. Mormons aren't Christians. I don't mean that as a criticism, only as a descriptive phrase. When Mormons claim Jesus Christ as their savior, there's no reason to doubt their sincerity and good will, or even to deny that they are in some way followers of Christ. Yet Mormonism rejects foundational doctrines of traditional Christian orthodoxy, such that it is impossible to reconcile with normative Christianity.

2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?

3. Theologically, this is a big deal. But politically, so what? Mormons vote like Southern Baptists and come down on the same side of most issues of public morality like conservative Christians do. If you're a socially conservative lawmaker, wouldn't you rather have a Mormon in your legislative foxhole than a Kennedy-style cafeteria Catholic or progressive mainline Protestant? I'm no Romney fan, but is there really no meaningful political difference between Good-Mormon Mitt and Bad-Catholic Rudy, to say nothing of Liberal-Protestant Hillary?

4. There are plenty of good reasons for conservative Christians not to vote for Mr. Romney, but his religious beliefs are not among them. Do Christians want to be in the position of rejecting a candidate whose political views and moral values they agree with, solely because they don't like his religion?

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

Not bitter at all and a seeker, not an atheist.

That is what I thought until he wrote one of his regular columns in The Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction shortly before his death in which he made his position abundantly clear. I remember being disappointed in him for reaching such a conclusion based on pride alone.

[County Agent Hank Kimball]

"The U.S. constitution says very clearly there will be no religious test for federal office, but many so-called conservatives don’t seem to take that document very seriously, or so it seems to me."

-----

The U.S. Constitution says that you can't have a religious test as a qualification for office. It does NOT say that individual citizens can't have religious tests for their votes!

If I want to vote only for Scientologists, or 95th degree Masons, or bisexual Slavic poets, I am perfecdtly entitled to do so. And if I DON'T want to vote for Mormons or Methodists or those untrustworthy, scheming, no-good Bahai Faith people, that's entirely within my rights as well.

This is like when people say we have to give O.J. Simpson or this guy Drew Peterson, or Terri Schiavo's husband the presumption of innocence. NO...the JURY has to give them the presumption of innocence. The JUDGE has to give them the presumption of innocence. I have to do no such thing!

Hank

[Soliton]

"Here is Biblical proof that Mary and Joseph had other children younger than Our Lord."

Thanks for clearing that up. I think using a verse written hundreds of years before Jesus was born backed up by an eliptical reference reminiscent of Nostradamus seals the deal.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

Why are you so sure that the Mormons can’t be right, when your religion has changed so much without Biblical evidence?

I am not herein arguing that the Mormons can't be right. I am making descriptive rather than prescriptive arguments. My point in this case is not what is true, but rather what is Christian. A Christian is one who accepts the Nicene Creed. By this argument, the LDS might be true, but it would not be Christian.

[Soliton]

"A Christian is one who accepts the Nicene Creed"

So your definition of "Christian" is Roman Catholic exclusively?

[Soliton]

"based on pride alone."

I think you mean "science" alone.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

So your definition of "Christian" is Roman Catholic exclusively?

Not exactly. 'The Nicene Creed is an ecumenical Christian statement of faith accepted in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian, the Anglican Communion, Lutheranism, the Reformed churches, Methodism, and many other forms of Protestantism.' - wikipedia. This is well over 90% of all who consider themselves Christian

[Soliton]

“And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;”

Isn’t this part of the Creed?

[Diego1618]

A Christian is one who accepts the Nicene Creed.

Poppycock! [Acts 11:26] And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

This predates Nicaea by 300 years....and what came out of that council bore no resemblance to first century Christianity!

[MHGinTN]

Not exactly proof, but an indication. The younger may not have been fatehred by Joseph for we do not actually know when Joseph died or if Mary was married after Joseph to someone who already had children thus these siblings wound be ‘half-brothers and sisters’. We just don’t know.

[melsec]

“It’s likely that we can even do a better job of devising such standards than the iron-age desert dwellers who created the major religions of the West.”

Yeah ...OK ...Good luck with that.....we are doing a great job so far

Mel

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

So your definition of "Christian" is Roman Catholic exclusively?

Not exactly. 'The Nicene Creed is an ecumenical Christian statement of faith accepted in the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Assyrian, the Anglican Communion, Lutheranism, the Reformed churches, Methodism, and many other forms of Protestantism.' - wikipedia. This is well over 90% of all who consider themselves Christian

[Old Mountain man]

Whoopie! Hitler was elected by the popular vote! I guess you think that makes him right also?

[Old Mountain man]

Read your Bible before you decide what is and is not Christian.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

The Four Marks of the Church, sometimes referred to as the Marks of the Church or the Marks of the True Church, are a group of four adjectives describing the true Church as established by Jesus Christ. They are commonly acknowledged by most Christian denominations, as they are included in many of their creeds. The marks are often listed as follows: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. They refer to four aspects that are intrinsic to the true Church: unity, sanctity, catholicism (or universality), and apostolicity.

[MHGinTN]

You’re going to have to simplify your vocabulary for Old Mountain man, he can’t understand the difference in words like prescriptive and descriptive ... “I am making descriptive rather than prescriptive arguments.” LCS

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

The New Testament is what the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church said it was, no more and no less.

[Old Mountain man]

Read it sometime.

[MHGinTN]

Folks have posted links to OMm which can teach him how the particualr books in the New Testament were decided, but he prefers ignorance so he can plead innocent as he denigrates the Bible, all very stealthily by his reckoning don’tchaknow.

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

I guess you think that makes him right also?

My arguments here generally have not been about what is right and true, but what factually describes Christians. Membership in a church that accepts the Nicene Creed is true of virtually all Christians. This of course is no argument that it is the truth, if one is not a Christian.