`Intelligent design' ban is proposed (Democrats to the Rescue!!)

Chicago Tribune ^ | 17 Feb 2006 | Tribune News Services

[gobucks]

MADISON, Wis. -- Two Democratic lawmakers introduced a bill to ban public schools from teaching "intelligent design" as science, saying "pseudo-science" should have no place in the classroom.

The proposal is the first of its kind in the country, the National Conference of State Legislatures said.

The measure would require science curriculums to describe only natural processes and follow definitions from the National Academy of Sciences.

Its sponsor, Rep. Terese Berceau, acknowledged the measure faces an uphill fight in a legislature where Republicans control both houses.

Berceau said science education is under attack across the country as proponents of intelligent design promote alternatives to Darwinian evolution. Intelligent design holds that details in nature are so complex they are best explained as products of a designer, not only unguided natural selection of mutations as with Darwin.

Critics say intelligent design is thinly disguised religion that lacks any basis in science. In December, a federal judge in Pennsylvania outlawed a school district's policy of reading a statement to classes citing intelligent design options.

[ConsentofGoverned]

"The last thing DEMONcrats want is people thinking for themselves."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.............
The basis of STATE POWER is that G-D must be removed- ID is a threat to all that the fascist leftist have based the supreme state on.

[mlc9852]

The evos must still be sleeping. I'm confident they will attack (I mean join) us shortly. lol

[whispering out loud]

I was wondering the same thing, but me thinks what has happened here, is that evo has finally been associated with it's proper political party, and the evo freaks, are sickened by the coalition with the Dems.

[starbase]

evo has finally been associated with it's proper political party, and the evo freaks, are sickened by the coalition with the Dems.

You know, not to speak in riddles or anything, but I've come to think that the creationists would have won this debate sometime back, but for the fact that they are creationists!

My background is in systems design, and that's how I approach this issue. The absence of transition fossils is a deal breaker with evolution. Given that this alone disproves evolution, I don't have any explanation as to why we're here, or who we are. But the creationist's explanation is what keeps the evos in business, given that it's unprovable.

With the Piltdown Man fraud, and perhaps above all, the idiocy of claiming that a monkey could retype Shakespeare if given enough time (i.e. the fraud of systematic, organized change being afforded by infinity), and the fact that anyone who doesn't accept this is attacked, evolution holds all the hallmarks of a pampered orthodoxy, destined ultimately to join the Alchemists and the Ancient Egyptians.

But to embark at all on the creationist's explanation is to breathe new life into the evolution orthodoxy. How long and how far this debate will play out is anyone's guess but at least it will be interesting to watch!

PS Havoc, I pinged you specifically for your opinion as to how far and how long this debate will go on. Hope to hear your view on that. Cheers.

[neutrality]

The measure would require science curriculums to describe only natural processes and follow definitions from the National Academy of Sciences.

Sounds reasonable, but naturally only public schools should be affected

[wintertime]

Two Democratic lawmakers introduced a bill to ban public schools from teaching "intelligent design" as science, saying "pseudo-science" should have no place in the classroom. ( gobucks)

To All:

Is there anyone here that would deny that evolution/ID no matter how presented to the students WILL have religious consequences for all the children in the school?????

The point of conflict here isn't evolution or ID. NO!

The problem is that we have government schools!

Government schools can not be neutral politically, culturally, and morals/ethics/values ( that means religion).

Government has created a price-fixed monopoly of schools that has made private schools scarce and exclusive. Then when the parent has no other choice, the government threatens parents with armed police, court, and foster care action if they do not send their child to the government indoctrination center.

Only government could think up something so fiendishly evil!

Once in the government indoctrination center, the child will be subjected to the curriculum of the biggest political bully. (The evolution and ID bullies are struggling hard to win this)

Evolution and ID conflict is only one among HUNDREDS of issues that WILL have political, cultural, and religious consequences for all the children in the government school!

So....to those conservatives who remember a government school system that affirmed your Christian worldview. GIVE IT UP! You are not going to reform government schools and remake them into institutions you remember as a child.

The solution: Begin the process of destroying government schooling and replacing it with universal private K-12 education.

[wintertime]

The measure would require science curriculums to describe only natural processes and follow definitions from the National Academy of Sciences.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

To neutrality,

It is NOT reasonable for government to be forcing this on resistant children.

How the topic of the origins of life is approached has profound religious, cultural, and political consequences for all the children in the school. The government school can NOT approach this topic without establishing, supporting, upholding and affirming the religion of some of the students and trashing and subverting that of others.

The solution is to get government OUT of the k-12 education business!

Education of the young can never be politically, culturally, or religiously neutral in content or consequences.

By the way, I support the theory of evolution. BUT,,,I would never threaten a parent with armed police, court, or foster care action if they did not subject their child to my educational philosophy.

I support evolution, but I would NEVER threaten my fellow citizen with the sheriff's auction of their home or business to pay for it.

Remember that is the power that government schools have over our lives. ( REAL bullets in those guns on the hip!)

[wintertime]

WoW! little fascists? ( Echo Talon)

To Echo Talon,

You Bet! And Democrats are the biggest defenders of the government school industrial complex.

[A. Pole]

The evidence for Darwinian evolution is so provoking, and the evidential support for ID so weak, that liberals have decided that the only way to protect Darwin's theory is to legislate it into law.

I see serious consequences for such laws. Darwin theory does not include genetics (as it was developed in XIX century), it does not includes DNA paradigm (that organism develops from the DNA) etc ...

Congress would have to worked out definitive synthesis of these three and other principles. It would freeze the improvements and updating the school materials and will force schools to teach false things (DNA paradigm is useful but obviously false).

The science as opposed to religion does not aim to formulate eternal truths. Elevating scientific knowledge or assumptions to the rank of legal dogma will damage science.

We see twin attack on science - from free market side when science is corrupted by the profit motive, and from Political Correctness side where science is to serve the eradication of moral rules and establishing Soviet style atheism as state anti-church.

[wintertime]

The basis of STATE POWER is that G-D must be removed- ID is a threat to all that the fascist leftist have based the supreme state on.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&7

Consent of Governed,

The teaching of the origin of life HAS political consequences as well as moral, ethical, and values consequences.

Evolution/ID is merely one of hundreds of issues that have consequences. So?...why is government in the education business? Got me! How can this be constitutional?

The following is an excellent essay on the unconstitutionality of government schools, both on the state and federal levels:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Stuter/stuter9.htm

[wintertime]

when science is corrupted by the profit motive,

A. Pole,

OOOhh! That eeeeevil "profit-motive"! ( sarcasm)

You are kidding aren't you?

Not to get off topic, but it is the "profit-motive" that has driven most of science forward and given us the good life that we enjoy.

I'll think of you as I down my Fosomax, levothyroxine, and Premarin, and dress in entirely petroleum based clothing this morning.

[Ichneumon]

The absence of transition fossils is a deal breaker with evolution. Given that this alone disproves evolution

You mean, "given that this alone shows how ignorant you are on this topic and how full of false creationist propaganda you are..."

Absence of transition fossils, eh? Try reading science journals for a change instead of all those creationist pamphlets, you might actually learn something. Not only is there not an "absence" of transitional fossils, there are THOUSANDS:

Index to Creationist Claims: Claim CC200: There are no transitional fossils.

Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record

On Creation Science and "Transitional Fossils"

The Fossil Record: Evolution or "Scientific Creation"

No transitional fossils? Here's a challenge...

Phylum Level Evolution

Paleontology: The Fossil Record of Life

Cuffey: Transitional Fossils

What Is A Transitional Fossil?

More Evidence for Transitional Fossils

The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence

Transitional Forms of Whales

Fossil Horses FAQs

PALAEOS: The Trace of Life on Earth

Mammaliformes: Docodonta

Transitional Fossil Species And Modes of Speciation

Evolution and the Fossil Record

Smooth Change in the Fossil Record

Transitional fossil sequence from dinosaur to bird

Transitional fossil sequence from fish to elephant

Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ

And that's just the barest tip of the iceberg. Then of course there are literally gigabytes of DNA analyses which clearly establish common ancestry, not to mention scores of other lines of evidence cross-validating the same findings, and so on, and so on...

Try to learn something about a topic before you start to lecture on it ill-prepared.

With the Piltdown Man fraud,

...nearly a hundred years old, and the creationists are *still* whining about it. Tell me this -- if the liberals had to go back almost a century to find an example of conservative corruption to bitch about in an attempt to "discredit" conservatism, just how stupid and lame would they look, and how bad would their case look? So why do the creationists think that they're doing anything but making fools of themselves by waving around an absolutely ancient hoax (perpetrated by persons unknown for unknown motives) in a pathetic attempt to distract people from the 100 years of solid and legitimate research since then?

and perhaps above all, the idiocy of claiming that a monkey could retype Shakespeare if given enough time (i.e. the fraud of systematic, organized change being afforded by infinity),

No one's claiming that, actually. That's just how the creationists like to *misrepresent* the evolutionary process, in a classic "straw man" attack (i.e., ridiculing a cartoon-version of the opponent's position in order to "declare victory", instead of addressing the real thing).

and the fact that anyone who doesn't accept this is attacked,

Feel free not to accept it. I've no problem with that. What we *do* have a problem with is people who lie about it, who spread disinformation about it, who promulgate propaganda about it -- in short, people who act like Michael Moore and his followers. You know, like people who tell lies like "the absence of transition fossils" and other horsecrap like that.

evolution holds all the hallmarks of a pampered orthodoxy, destined ultimately to join the Alchemists and the Ancient Egyptians.

Oh look, *more* horsecrap. No, actually, evolution holds all the hallmarks of a proper science, backed by vast mountains of evidence along multiple cross-confirming lines, and enormous amounts of research, which has been validated in countless ways and has survived innumerable attempts at falsification. People who have bothered to actually crack open any advanced biology textbook or keep up with the science journals know this. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of folks who have only been fed a steady diet of creationist anti-evolution propaganda, who "know" next to nothing about the actual subject, and much of the little they do "know" is dead wrong. Yet for some reason these folks feel supremely qualified to lecture the rest of us on the topic, and to try to dictate to schools how science classes should be taught.

I don't like the idea of legislatures getting involved in the matter, but I can at least understand the reason they might feel the need. It's like the legislators who felt that they had to step in and provide protection from frivolous lawsuits for gun manufacturers -- in a perfect world there would be no need and lawsuits would be handled where they belong, in court, but in a world where anti-gun zealots decided to try to destroy gun manufacturers with endless waves of malicious lawsuits, something had to be done to bring some sanity back to the situation. And a similar point is being reached with the endless waves of anti-evolution crusaders who keep trying to redefine science standards, spread lies (and teach lies in classrooms) about existing fields of science, and dishonestly present blatant pseudoscience as if it *were* science. When there is a concerted and cynical effort to distort and pervert science education, don't be surprised when people start taking action in response, to set, maintain, or protect standards of education.

[wintertime]

starbase,

These threads usually devolve into a defense of evolution or ID.

The issue is really the indoctrination of children in our government schools. Evo/ID is merely one of hundreds of ways political bullies attempt to influence the next generation of voters, journalists, judges, legislators, ministers, police, movie makers, and community leaders of all kinds.

What's next? Are the DEMONcrats going to legislate in law that homosexuality MUST be taught as normal, or that global warming IS a fact, or President Lincoln was gay?

The solution to all this conflict is to get government OUT of the education business.

[wintertime]

Ichneumon,

OK,,,I agree with you.

But,,,,do you advocate threatening parents with armed police, court, and foster care action if they don't subject their children to evolution?

Do you advocate threatening your fellow citizens with the sheriff's sale of their home or business if they refuse to pay for subjecting children to evolution?

Remember there are real bullets in those guns on the hip.

Is the teaching of evolution to children Sooooooo important that parents and citizens should be threatened by police action?

( By the way, I am a supporter of evolution but I am not about to advocate police action against my fellow citizens.)

[wallcrawlr]

You know the drill.

Liberals side with evo's, evo's side with liberals...once again.

Revelation 4:11Intelligent Design
See my profile for info

[A. Pole]

[wintertime:] it is the "profit-motive" that has driven most of science forward

Free market bump

[gobucks]

well, it didn't take long...

[Ichneumon]

The issue is really the indoctrination of children in our government schools. Evo/ID is merely one of hundreds of ways political bullies attempt to influence the next generation of voters, journalists, judges, legislators, ministers, police, movie makers, and community leaders of all kinds. What's next? Are the DEMONcrats going to legislate in law that homosexuality MUST be taught as normal, or that global warming IS a fact, or President Lincoln was gay? The solution to all this conflict is to get government OUT of the education business.

Actually, that's unlikely to solve the problem you describe. Non-government groups are just as prone to push their own agendas into schools as well. If you think that privatised schools wouldn't suffer from the same problems, you haven't thought it through. You'd just be trading one group of "indoctrinators" for another.

Even in homeschooling, you'll have the problem of agendas in textbooks, parents turning out liberal robots, etc. -- at least with public schools, kids are exposed to a lot of differing viewpoints. Imagine a future where half of the population has been homeschooled in an echo-chamber of liberal propaganda, without being exposed to other students or teachers who can make the case for other worldviews.

Public schools are not the source of the problem -- lack of parent involvement in their kids' schools is the problem.

[starbase]

Well Ichneumon, I'll be honest, I have intentionally avoided conversation with you precisely because of your extraordinarily caustic style and your ridiculously long posts.

Don't you think so many links dumped on someone will be widely viewed as a diversionary tactic (i.e. do you think anyone actually reads so many links?)

I'll tell you what, I will look over these transitional fossil links of yours, but you must know it will take me some time, and if I find them fraudulent, will you be anywhere around for me to talk with, or will you just dump even longer lists of links on me once I'm done with this task?

Finally, I will say that if you really want to win this debate, you should be able to concisely list your points.

Now as I promised, I will go and start hunting down all these links of yours, but heavens knows this will take me all day.

I hope that wasn't your plan all along, or I will feel as if I'd been had by your "invitation"!!

Warmest regards,

starbase