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To: whispering out loud; mlc9852; Havoc
evo has finally been associated with it's proper political party, and the evo freaks, are sickened by the coalition with the Dems.

You know, not to speak in riddles or anything, but I've come to think that the creationists would have won this debate sometime back, but for the fact that they are creationists!

My background is in systems design, and that's how I approach this issue. The absence of transition fossils is a deal breaker with evolution. Given that this alone disproves evolution, I don't have any explanation as to why we're here, or who we are. But the creationist's explanation is what keeps the evos in business, given that it's unprovable.

With the Piltdown Man fraud, and perhaps above all, the idiocy of claiming that a monkey could retype Shakespeare if given enough time (i.e. the fraud of systematic, organized change being afforded by infinity), and the fact that anyone who doesn't accept this is attacked, evolution holds all the hallmarks of a pampered orthodoxy, destined ultimately to join the Alchemists and the Ancient Egyptians.

But to embark at all on the creationist's explanation is to breathe new life into the evolution orthodoxy. How long and how far this debate will play out is anyone's guess but at least it will be interesting to watch!

PS Havoc, I pinged you specifically for your opinion as to how far and how long this debate will go on. Hope to hear your view on that. Cheers.
24 posted on 02/18/2006 5:07:28 AM PST by starbase (Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
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To: starbase; whispering out loud; PatrickHenry
The absence of transition fossils is a deal breaker with evolution. Given that this alone disproves evolution

You mean, "given that this alone shows how ignorant you are on this topic and how full of false creationist propaganda you are..."

Absence of transition fossils, eh? Try reading science journals for a change instead of all those creationist pamphlets, you might actually learn something. Not only is there not an "absence" of transitional fossils, there are THOUSANDS:

Index to Creationist Claims: Claim CC200: There are no transitional fossils.

Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record

On Creation Science and "Transitional Fossils"

The Fossil Record: Evolution or "Scientific Creation"

No transitional fossils? Here's a challenge...

Phylum Level Evolution

Paleontology: The Fossil Record of Life

Cuffey: Transitional Fossils

What Is A Transitional Fossil?

More Evidence for Transitional Fossils

The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence

Transitional Forms of Whales

Fossil Horses FAQs

PALAEOS: The Trace of Life on Earth

Mammaliformes: Docodonta

Transitional Fossil Species And Modes of Speciation

Evolution and the Fossil Record

Smooth Change in the Fossil Record

Transitional fossil sequence from dinosaur to bird

Transitional fossil sequence from fish to elephant

Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ

And that's just the barest tip of the iceberg. Then of course there are literally gigabytes of DNA analyses which clearly establish common ancestry, not to mention scores of other lines of evidence cross-validating the same findings, and so on, and so on...

Try to learn something about a topic before you start to lecture on it ill-prepared.

With the Piltdown Man fraud,

...nearly a hundred years old, and the creationists are *still* whining about it. Tell me this -- if the liberals had to go back almost a century to find an example of conservative corruption to bitch about in an attempt to "discredit" conservatism, just how stupid and lame would they look, and how bad would their case look? So why do the creationists think that they're doing anything but making fools of themselves by waving around an absolutely ancient hoax (perpetrated by persons unknown for unknown motives) in a pathetic attempt to distract people from the 100 years of solid and legitimate research since then?

and perhaps above all, the idiocy of claiming that a monkey could retype Shakespeare if given enough time (i.e. the fraud of systematic, organized change being afforded by infinity),

No one's claiming that, actually. That's just how the creationists like to *misrepresent* the evolutionary process, in a classic "straw man" attack (i.e., ridiculing a cartoon-version of the opponent's position in order to "declare victory", instead of addressing the real thing).

and the fact that anyone who doesn't accept this is attacked,

Feel free not to accept it. I've no problem with that. What we *do* have a problem with is people who lie about it, who spread disinformation about it, who promulgate propaganda about it -- in short, people who act like Michael Moore and his followers. You know, like people who tell lies like "the absence of transition fossils" and other horsecrap like that.

evolution holds all the hallmarks of a pampered orthodoxy, destined ultimately to join the Alchemists and the Ancient Egyptians.

Oh look, *more* horsecrap. No, actually, evolution holds all the hallmarks of a proper science, backed by vast mountains of evidence along multiple cross-confirming lines, and enormous amounts of research, which has been validated in countless ways and has survived innumerable attempts at falsification. People who have bothered to actually crack open any advanced biology textbook or keep up with the science journals know this. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of folks who have only been fed a steady diet of creationist anti-evolution propaganda, who "know" next to nothing about the actual subject, and much of the little they do "know" is dead wrong. Yet for some reason these folks feel supremely qualified to lecture the rest of us on the topic, and to try to dictate to schools how science classes should be taught.

I don't like the idea of legislatures getting involved in the matter, but I can at least understand the reason they might feel the need. It's like the legislators who felt that they had to step in and provide protection from frivolous lawsuits for gun manufacturers -- in a perfect world there would be no need and lawsuits would be handled where they belong, in court, but in a world where anti-gun zealots decided to try to destroy gun manufacturers with endless waves of malicious lawsuits, something had to be done to bring some sanity back to the situation. And a similar point is being reached with the endless waves of anti-evolution crusaders who keep trying to redefine science standards, spread lies (and teach lies in classrooms) about existing fields of science, and dishonestly present blatant pseudoscience as if it *were* science. When there is a concerted and cynical effort to distort and pervert science education, don't be surprised when people start taking action in response, to set, maintain, or protect standards of education.

33 posted on 02/18/2006 6:00:23 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: starbase
starbase,

These threads usually devolve into a defense of evolution or ID.

The issue is really the indoctrination of children in our government schools. Evo/ID is merely one of hundreds of ways political bullies attempt to influence the next generation of voters, journalists, judges, legislators, ministers, police, movie makers, and community leaders of all kinds.

What's next? Are the DEMONcrats going to legislate in law that homosexuality MUST be taught as normal, or that global warming IS a fact, or President Lincoln was gay?

The solution to all this conflict is to get government OUT of the education business.
34 posted on 02/18/2006 6:03:42 AM PST by wintertime
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To: starbase

How long will it go on? If you look at the debate in the same way that we view the crackup of the democratic party, I think the answer is self-evident. The majority of Americans rejects Evolution utterly. The best numbers they have are 6 percent in the ruling party believing it in undilute form and 13 percent total. The soft numbers give them a nod up to 40 percent; but, it's a nod, not wholesale support. The numbers are soft and are where Creationists are gaining much of their ground.

The best descriptor for the evo crowd right now is panic. They don't want to admit it; but, the evidence of their actions betrays it day in and day out. The fervor with which they hit ID is full scale lunacy. And they don't have the slightest clue that it's tangiential. ID is not religious - has nothing to do with religion. But, it serves to make their fight a two front war with both fronts advancing against them. They may think they've won something with court battles and schoolboards; but, the majority public is with Creation and ID. And you can't legislate or adjudicate that. They have to prove their case and cannot.

A key point to make is that they've pretended the theory is scientific. The crowd doesnt' believe that when it is discussed forthrightly. The longtime hidingplace has been behind science. When people don't find it scientific and they're hiding behind science.. just does them no favors. The copout on proofs drives many away as well. Once you beg off proofs, you've lost the audience with no real way to overcome it.

The lunacy is not at critical mass yet; but, when they're referring to Ken Ham and Dr. Dino as dangerous threats akin to the Taliban, it isn't far off. The fat lady has been warming up for a while. I wouldn't be too surprised when she starts belting it out. There is just too much being learned each year and the best they can do is take something that discredits them and spin it to look the opposite way


78 posted on 02/18/2006 8:36:53 AM PST by Havoc (Evolutionists and Democrats: "We aren't getting our message out" (coincidence?))
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