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To: starbase; whispering out loud; PatrickHenry
The absence of transition fossils is a deal breaker with evolution. Given that this alone disproves evolution

You mean, "given that this alone shows how ignorant you are on this topic and how full of false creationist propaganda you are..."

Absence of transition fossils, eh? Try reading science journals for a change instead of all those creationist pamphlets, you might actually learn something. Not only is there not an "absence" of transitional fossils, there are THOUSANDS:

Index to Creationist Claims: Claim CC200: There are no transitional fossils.

Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record

On Creation Science and "Transitional Fossils"

The Fossil Record: Evolution or "Scientific Creation"

No transitional fossils? Here's a challenge...

Phylum Level Evolution

Paleontology: The Fossil Record of Life

Cuffey: Transitional Fossils

What Is A Transitional Fossil?

More Evidence for Transitional Fossils

The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence

Transitional Forms of Whales

Fossil Horses FAQs

PALAEOS: The Trace of Life on Earth

Mammaliformes: Docodonta

Transitional Fossil Species And Modes of Speciation

Evolution and the Fossil Record

Smooth Change in the Fossil Record

Transitional fossil sequence from dinosaur to bird

Transitional fossil sequence from fish to elephant

Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ

And that's just the barest tip of the iceberg. Then of course there are literally gigabytes of DNA analyses which clearly establish common ancestry, not to mention scores of other lines of evidence cross-validating the same findings, and so on, and so on...

Try to learn something about a topic before you start to lecture on it ill-prepared.

With the Piltdown Man fraud,

...nearly a hundred years old, and the creationists are *still* whining about it. Tell me this -- if the liberals had to go back almost a century to find an example of conservative corruption to bitch about in an attempt to "discredit" conservatism, just how stupid and lame would they look, and how bad would their case look? So why do the creationists think that they're doing anything but making fools of themselves by waving around an absolutely ancient hoax (perpetrated by persons unknown for unknown motives) in a pathetic attempt to distract people from the 100 years of solid and legitimate research since then?

and perhaps above all, the idiocy of claiming that a monkey could retype Shakespeare if given enough time (i.e. the fraud of systematic, organized change being afforded by infinity),

No one's claiming that, actually. That's just how the creationists like to *misrepresent* the evolutionary process, in a classic "straw man" attack (i.e., ridiculing a cartoon-version of the opponent's position in order to "declare victory", instead of addressing the real thing).

and the fact that anyone who doesn't accept this is attacked,

Feel free not to accept it. I've no problem with that. What we *do* have a problem with is people who lie about it, who spread disinformation about it, who promulgate propaganda about it -- in short, people who act like Michael Moore and his followers. You know, like people who tell lies like "the absence of transition fossils" and other horsecrap like that.

evolution holds all the hallmarks of a pampered orthodoxy, destined ultimately to join the Alchemists and the Ancient Egyptians.

Oh look, *more* horsecrap. No, actually, evolution holds all the hallmarks of a proper science, backed by vast mountains of evidence along multiple cross-confirming lines, and enormous amounts of research, which has been validated in countless ways and has survived innumerable attempts at falsification. People who have bothered to actually crack open any advanced biology textbook or keep up with the science journals know this. Meanwhile, there are a bunch of folks who have only been fed a steady diet of creationist anti-evolution propaganda, who "know" next to nothing about the actual subject, and much of the little they do "know" is dead wrong. Yet for some reason these folks feel supremely qualified to lecture the rest of us on the topic, and to try to dictate to schools how science classes should be taught.

I don't like the idea of legislatures getting involved in the matter, but I can at least understand the reason they might feel the need. It's like the legislators who felt that they had to step in and provide protection from frivolous lawsuits for gun manufacturers -- in a perfect world there would be no need and lawsuits would be handled where they belong, in court, but in a world where anti-gun zealots decided to try to destroy gun manufacturers with endless waves of malicious lawsuits, something had to be done to bring some sanity back to the situation. And a similar point is being reached with the endless waves of anti-evolution crusaders who keep trying to redefine science standards, spread lies (and teach lies in classrooms) about existing fields of science, and dishonestly present blatant pseudoscience as if it *were* science. When there is a concerted and cynical effort to distort and pervert science education, don't be surprised when people start taking action in response, to set, maintain, or protect standards of education.

33 posted on 02/18/2006 6:00:23 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
Ichneumon,

OK,,,I agree with you.

But,,,,do you advocate threatening parents with armed police, court, and foster care action if they don't subject their children to evolution?

Do you advocate threatening your fellow citizens with the sheriff's sale of their home or business if they refuse to pay for subjecting children to evolution?

Remember there are real bullets in those guns on the hip.

Is the teaching of evolution to children Sooooooo important that parents and citizens should be threatened by police action?

( By the way, I am a supporter of evolution but I am not about to advocate police action against my fellow citizens.)
35 posted on 02/18/2006 6:07:53 AM PST by wintertime
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To: Ichneumon; starbase

well, it didn't take long...


38 posted on 02/18/2006 6:14:05 AM PST by gobucks (Blissful Marriage: A result of a worldly husband's transformation into the Word's wife.)
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To: Ichneumon
Well Ichneumon, I'll be honest, I have intentionally avoided conversation with you precisely because of your extraordinarily caustic style and your ridiculously long posts.

Don't you think so many links dumped on someone will be widely viewed as a diversionary tactic (i.e. do you think anyone actually reads so many links?)

I'll tell you what, I will look over these transitional fossil links of yours, but you must know it will take me some time, and if I find them fraudulent, will you be anywhere around for me to talk with, or will you just dump even longer lists of links on me once I'm done with this task?

Finally, I will say that if you really want to win this debate, you should be able to concisely list your points.

Now as I promised, I will go and start hunting down all these links of yours, but heavens knows this will take me all day.

I hope that wasn't your plan all along, or I will feel as if I'd been had by your "invitation"!!

Warmest regards,

starbase
40 posted on 02/18/2006 6:15:33 AM PST by starbase (Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
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To: Ichneumon

"...but in a world where anti-gun zealots decided to try to destroy gun manufacturers with endless waves of malicious lawsuits, something had to be done to bring some sanity back to the situation."

Endless waves of malicious lawsuits...

Nice metaphor. And illogically applied - for ID folks are not bringing on the lawsuits - the evos, however, with great zeal, are.

Properly applied, in fact, government education itself is the expression of punitive damages of earlier endless waves of lawsuits that were NOT countered, were NOT confronted w/ "some" sanity.

But you know this already. I honestly like the tomes which are called 'posts' that you provide, btw. Would you please provide a post regarding just how homeschoolers should be 'regulated' regarding evolution?


45 posted on 02/18/2006 6:22:42 AM PST by gobucks (Blissful Marriage: A result of a worldly husband's transformation into the Word's wife.)
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To: Ichneumon; Junior
[Thunderous applause!]

Junior, archive?

73 posted on 02/18/2006 8:10:51 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Ichneumon

"When there is a concerted and cynical effort to distort and pervert science education, don't be surprised when people start taking action in response, to set, maintain, or protect standards of education.

Yep, democrats will always try to protect their standards of education by forcing them on us just like the communists.
Nice to see you have taken their side. :)


79 posted on 02/18/2006 8:42:18 AM PST by antisocial (Texas SCV - Deo Vindice)
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To: Ichneumon
"Then of course there are literally gigabytes of DNA analyses which clearly establish common ancestry, not to mention scores of other lines of evidence cross-validating the same findings, and so on, and so on... "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..................
A very good point..the DNA trail would seem to support evolution if you ignore one fact: Nothing in ID refutes common DNA information in living organisms.. as all life was created from basic "clay as metaphor for DNA"..not one piece of data or article you listed has been able to show how a new species appeared ..only point to variants within a species..I do not deny evolution as able to cause in species changes..just that YOU and your side assume too much from the data you present. As you know no record of the development of the something as common as the HUMAN eye can be found. The complex eye just appeared in multiple species with no prior record of how it was evolved..
197 posted on 02/20/2006 4:47:44 AM PST by ConsentofGoverned (if a sucker is born every minute, what are the voters?)
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