What Next for Conservatives (Creationism and spending are destroying the Republican Party)

townhall.com ^ | 11/17/2005 | George Will

[curiosity]

The storm-tossed and rudderless Republican Party should particularly ponder the vote last week in Dover, Pa., where all eight members of the school board seeking re-election were defeated. This expressed the community's wholesome exasperation with the board's campaign to insinuate religion, in the guise of "intelligent design'' theory, into high school biology classes, beginning with a required proclamation that evolution "is not a fact.''

[Mamzelle]

I'll rephrase it--'tarians want the GOP to lose the social conservatism, legalize drugs, legalize prostitution, and get rid of icky Christians with bad haircuts. Then the libertarians will be satisfied, and go out and vote for the Libertarian candidate. Out of principal, of course.

[Liberal Classic]

I guess you don't have any shame after all in smearing your fellow freepers. How you could suggest I want to "get rid of Christians" is beyond me.

[Senator Bedfellow]

You don't win over a jury by insulting eleven out of twelve, and then crying to the judge.

Oh, puhleeeze. This from the poster who tosses out "fascist" like she's giving away Halloween candy?

Tend to your own house, madam.

[Mamzelle]

Hey, I was one of the original libertarians. I still have my "taxation is theft" button. However, I evolved. And If I heard once, I heard a thousand times, the rant..."Those rightwing religious nuts are going to kill the GOP"--from those who never voted for the GOP--they either didn't bother to vote, or they made their "protest" to the LPA. And the religious right carefully organized, did the footwork, garnered and lobbied. Survival of the fittest.

[Senator Bedfellow]

You're a bullying atheist commie fascist libertine. Don't forget to vote for me!

Yeah, that'll work :)

[PatrickHenry]

When Virtual Ignore isn't enough: Common scold.

[Liberal Classic]

I've parted ways with the LP as well, but that isn't the issue. The issue is you smearing people in this thread. I have never called Christians ( or conservative Jews for that matter) "rightwing religious nuts" or anything of the sort. I have never said I want Christians to "go away." Where do you get this crap?

The point to posting the Goldwater quote was not to say faith has no place in the public arena, only that some things people do in the name of faith is unwise. The creationism issue is a perfect example of this. In this modern era, educated people will never accept the Bible as *science* but this does not mean educated people don't accept the Bible on matters of faith and morality. Advocating the teaching of intelligent design and creation science in biology class does a disservice to both science and faith. I'd say a large majority of people working in the sciences and engineering have religious faith, this includes the field of biology. Most people working in biology have religious faith and understand what evolution says and have no problem reconciling the two. Pushing for the teaching of creation science and intelligent design in biology class is a losing issue. It is also going to hand the left-wing media the ammunition to paint conservatives and Republicans as being anti-science. It is a losing issue.

Furthermore, questioning "evos" as being fake conservatives and implying they don't belong on this site is an awful insult. You ought to be ashamed of saying this sort of thing about your fellow freepers.

[Mamzelle]

I can see this is deteriorating rapidly, I'll leave Beevis to his alter egos--but, just for future reference, can Those Who Must Not Be Spoken To sport some kind of indicator? An emoticon, perhaps.

Or a font of unusal color...yellow?

[jwalsh07]

You agree that the Dover school board incumbents lost the election, correct?

I agree, correct.

Would you like supporting data for this fact?

No, I want supporting data whereby technophile ideologues attempt to extrapolate local school board elections into dire predictions of conservative/Republican meltdowns in congressional and national elections.

Got any?

[jwalsh07]

It's a fact that the Dover School board lost. It's also a fact that ID/Creationism wasn't an issue in the 2004 election. But it's becoming one now. The Chicago Tribune has had front page stories at least three times in the past month on this. In addition, the recent Sunday edition featured an entire front page editorial section on this issue with three separate articles. These are facts.

The facts are as follows:

1. ID/creationism has never appeared on any issues list by any polling outfit that I know of.

2. Recent polling destroys your hypothesis because self identified creationists are a healthy majority in this country whereby conservatives are not.

3. Extrapolating local school board results to national and regional elections is bad political science, charlatansville in fact.

4. Kansas is a case in point that destroys that extrapolation. When they threw out their BOE folks the state remained solidly conservative in congressional and state elections.

5. Evolution/ID plays well as a small issue in areas of the country long lost to conservatives/republicans such as the Northeast.

6. In red states creationism/God wins votes, it doesn't lose votes.

7. Your hypothesis is based on wishful thinking, not any objective review of the facts.

Now those are the facts and those facts are the enemy of any hypothesis claiming a belief that God created the universe is a loser for conservatives. Now and for the foreseeable future.

[jwalsh07]

Please explain clearly why this is true.

I was clear, that you don't understand that doesn't speak to my writing skills, it speaks to your reading comprehension skills. Atlaw understood perfectly.

You might want to read up on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy first.

When I want advice from you, I'll ask. Don't hold your breath.

Either way, your post has nothing to do with evolution.

LOL, a crime worthy of the gallows I'm sure.

[jwalsh07]

What aout "God acted just enough to make evolution false, but not so much as we can prove?"

Profound, I'll give it the consideration it's due.

[jwalsh07]

Do you mean to tell me that ID/evolution will not supplant the economy, the WOT, morality, spending, taxes and unfettered courts in the hearts and souls of conservative voters in the coming election?

Pshaw!

[scripter]

FYI - little jeremiah won't be around for awhile as his father passed away last night.

[ml1954]

Now those are the facts and those facts are the enemy of any hypothesis claiming a belief that God created the universe is a loser for conservatives. Now and for the foreseeable future.

I never made any hypothesis that 'claiming a belief that God created the universe is a loser for conservatives.' And it's dishonest for you to imply I did.

Some of your 'facts' are not facts either.

When I'm having a discussion with someone and they start saying I said something I didn't, and present their own hypothesis and opinions as 'facts', I conclude the discussion is not in good faith and that my further participation is a waste of time.

[af_vet_rr]

Will says that creationism is harming the Republican party.

I say that is nonsense since most Americans reject evolution, even a God-directed evolution.

None of us know how many Americans believe one way or another, because we can go out and find polls and statistics that support both viewpoints. We could probably find polls that support a theory that we are descended from a race of super-intelligent beach balls that controlled half the known galaxy at some point.

The problem is not with creationism or evolution, the problem is with the debate over them becoming a national issue.

As a Conservative, you understand that a debate between creationism and evolution and how and where they should be taught should be left to the local communities, with counties being the highest level it reaches. After all, this debate is neither a Constitutional issue, nor a national security issue, and some local communities have already started working on resolving it.

Unfortunately, too many Republicans are trying to make this a national issue, and it's drowning out matters of national security and national policy. It doesn't help that we have an administration in office that supports the federal government dabbling in local school matters. Having the federal government dictate how and what schools teach is just plain bad - whether it's Bill Clinton or George Bush in office.

As a fellow Conservative, I know you would rather the federal government mind its own business, and allow you and your neighbors to decide how and what your children should be taught, especially when it comes to matters of religion - anybody with half a brain can take a look at the current Middle East or at Europe in the Middle Ages and see how badly things go when the government and religion mix (funny how the modern ME can resemble Europe during the Middle Ages at times...).

[NewLand]

Well stated. The most significant line is;

The desire to be the all-knowing great knower is in many ways a desire to be God.

I noticed in a reply to your post from one of the usual suspects that there is a characterization that all things not defined are miracles, in the mind of a believer, according to him/her/them. The reply was totally backwards...believers are accepting and OK with 'not knowing all the details'...evos are the ones uncomfortable with someone else knowing all the answers, not them, and our inability to understand "everything".

This is the underlying issue.

[NewLand]

After all, this debate is neither a Constitutional issue, nor a national security issue, and some local communities have already started working on resolving it.

Unfortunately, too many Republicans are trying to make this a national issue, and it's drowning out matters of national security and national policy.

Exactly. Which is why these threads should be handled totally differently on a forum that states as it's primary objective:

Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America.

[Virginia-American]

...if they're scared to death to entertain a new theory, even one that's preposterous to them (physicists do it all the time, but the prospect turns some biologists to shivering jello)...

No, it's constantly calling something a theory when it isn't that riles us up. I can only speak for myself, but I'm more grossed out than scared.

According to standard biology, any ERV, for example, found in both gorillas and chimps will also be found in people. So far, this has always been true.

Also, "if in both cows and whales, then hippos", of "if in both cats and dogs, then bears", and so on and so on.

What does ID have to say? Nothing. The hypothesized designer could do it that way, or could presumably do it any other way as well.

Do you see why scientists aren't impressed with this? ID or CS is in principle incapable of making predictions. There are only two ways around this: either 1) put some restraints on the hypothetical designer's powers or 2) do like Behe et al and admit that there is no evidence of intervention in the last few hu8ndred million years and that ID is only an abiogenesis conjecture, along with panspermia, primordial soup, primordial pizza, and so forth.

[curiosity]

just who injected moonbat ideas into the public school curriculum in the first place?

There's no shortage of moonbat ideas in public school, that's for sure. And no, creationists weren't the first. "Whole language learning" and "self esteem math" are just two I can think of off the top of my head, but there's a lot more than that.

But I don't discriminate against moonbat ideas. I want to keep all of them out, whether it's creationism or the ones I mentioned above."