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Atheists File Suit Against UHP Memorial Crosses
ABC 4 in Utah ^ | 12/1/2005 | ABC 4

Posted on 12/01/2005 7:13:41 AM PST by Andyman

A lawsuit against memorial crosses is set to be filed Thursday by a group that feels they violate the separation of church and state.

Three Utah atheists, backed by a national organization based in Texas, are filing suit against the state for allowing crosses to be erected in honor of highway patrol troopers, who have died in the line of duty.

Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

According to the UHP Association, a support group for troopers and their families, many fallen troopers' relatives consider the memorial crosses just as important as the tombstones that mark their graves.

Sgt. Todd Royce of the UHP Association told ABC 4 News, "It's a sense of pride, I think. It's a... kind of a sacred feeling."

The atheists suggest the association could honor the troopers with a non-denominational symbol.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: atheistagenda; athiests; cross; lawsuit; memorials; moralabsolutes; purge; secularjihad
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To: Morris_Hattrick

Morris, if one of these atheists was a family member of a deceased atheist Trooper, I'd agree. If the family objected to a cross because the deceased was Jewish, Muslim, etc...I'd back them 100% and I'd hope that the state would respect their wishes and erect an appropriate memorial.

But these guys are raising the issue because the crosses offend THEM! It's not a matter of respect for the dead troopers.


141 posted on 12/01/2005 5:35:56 PM PST by GatorGirl
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To: mc6809e
There was a time when Christians did indeed systematically kill atheists, and "witches", and all kinds of other non-Christians.

And folks like you are making me appreciate the wisdom of our fathers.

142 posted on 12/01/2005 5:43:29 PM PST by Raycpa
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To: Andyman

Those Hitler quotes sound like the current atheists, are you sure these are not urban myth?


143 posted on 12/01/2005 5:50:18 PM PST by Raycpa
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To: Andyman
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

You can't feel that way until at least one of you gets turned into a lampshade. Then you may have the option of equating yourself with the holocost.
144 posted on 12/01/2005 6:23:16 PM PST by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: Andyman
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

I guess he had a few million relatves and friends and fellow atheists killed for no reason other than hate by the Highway Patrol.

What an idiot.

145 posted on 12/01/2005 6:24:00 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: VOA; gman992
To those Romans, the Christians just didn't have enough religion (or gods).

In fact, ironically enough, the charge against early Christians was often atheism.

146 posted on 12/01/2005 6:33:11 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Andyman
"Three Utah atheists, backed by a national organization based in Texas..."

Now there is a word combination I never thought I'd see.

Wonder how hard someone had to work to put that set together?

147 posted on 12/01/2005 7:07:19 PM PST by norton
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To: FormerLib

The one thing that separates this nation from all other nations is that foundation upon which this nation was established.

Rights endowed by the Creator no man/government can take or give. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, protects each and every one of US. No where does that say the Creator demands any individual to accept Him or is required by others to reject Him.

So these that are so very anxious to remove any mention of the Creator or God, ignore they are free to reject the Heavenly Father and they are Constitutionally protected. Once they remove that foundation then we become no different than any other nation and what ever a majority decides that becomes the required belief. Now that is faith whether one can see it or not, that human beings are not going to take matters into their own hands from the left to the right.


148 posted on 12/01/2005 7:13:43 PM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Andyman; odoso; animoveritas; mercygrace; Laissez-faire capitalist; bellevuesbest; Unam Sanctam; ...

Moral Absolutes Ping.

Anyone have any doubt as to the actual motive of aggressive atheists like these? One hand is raised, a lurker perhaps?

Okay. Here it is. I, personally, am not offended by religious symbols that I don't identify with or use. Not a whit. In fact, I'm glad that such symbols help people remember God, even if it's in a different manner than me. Do I dislike seeing houses of worship that are not ones I might attend? Nope. I like seeing them, knowing that at least some of the people are being helped to rememeber God. How about people who call God by a different name, or read different holy books? Fine with me. Worship on a different day? AFAIC, any day is fine - how about remembering Him and praying every day?

Why are atheists (the professional kind) so hateful about OTHERS remembering God? Why are they so intolerant, angry and vengeful?

They're envious. They don't want to be reminded that Someone Else is the Supreme controller, knower, and owner. They don't want to be reminded that they are not really the master of their own lives. That Someone else is more powerful than they are. Pure, unadulterated envy.

Freepmail me if you want on/off this pinglist.

Note: I only extend my tolerance to Muslims who do not in any way support Islamic jihad, the goal of dominating the world, and think most of the Sharia laws such as the illegality of Muslims converting to other religions wrong. If they do adhere to those beliefs or practices, my tolerance stops at that point.


149 posted on 12/01/2005 7:27:36 PM PST by little jeremiah
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> There is nothing in the theory of universal gravitation to oppose Nazism either. I don't believe in a god. Why should that bear on any political movement? <<

I'm sorry; I need to re-assert my context more as I drift from one respondent to the next. Please believe me that I am not trying to assert either that (1) atheism inherently leads to atrocities like Hitler, (2) any individual's atheistic belief system bears similarities or vulnerabilities to Nazism, or (3) any given atheist belief system inherently is responsible for Nazism.

The context was whether Hitler was Christian or Nihilist, and whether such Nihilism as Hitler's can be considered a subset of Atheism. Since Christianity is defined by rejecting certain actions inherent to the Nazi system, one doesn't need to get bogged down in debates over Hitler's contraditory and dishonest statements. Hence, we can eliminate the possibility that Hitler was a Christian. There is nothing in atheism which similarly inherently precludes the possibility that Hitler was an atheist, so Hitler may, on the basis of his actions, be an atheist.

That alone does not prove such a case. I also admitted the possibility that Hitler's nihilism may reject atheism as having certain beliefs, even those beliefs are in the absence of something (a god), or that Hitler may subscribe to some sort of Roman self-deificiation.


150 posted on 12/01/2005 7:38:16 PM PST by dangus
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To: WildTurkey

Well, you've certainly convinced me that you know nothing about Christianity but you certainly don't let that stop you from hating it.


151 posted on 12/01/2005 7:51:16 PM PST by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: mc6809e
The state has no right to the free exercise of religion. That would be the same as establishing religion which is prohibited by the first amendment.

So putting crosses or jewish stars on the graves in Arlignton National Cemetary is not allowed either?

It's the same.

152 posted on 12/01/2005 7:51:33 PM PST by Centurion2000 ((Aubrey, Tx) --- America, we get the best government corporations can buy.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> There is nothing in the theory of universal gravitation to oppose Nazism either. I don't believe in a god. Why should that bear on any political movement? <<

Incidentally, I have a quite very Catholic Yugoslavian great uncle (his ethnic group is "Gotscheer.") He did enthusiastically support Hitler, volunteering for the army. Apon capture by the allied forces, he was so disgusted by what he heard of Hitler, that, when the allies were faced with a counter-offensive, he grabbed a rifle and fought side-by-side with his American captors, was recognized as a hero, and was granted a visa, and eventually citizenship, in America.

I'm sure he would quite vigorously refute all of the notions: that Yugoslavs expected Hitler to establish Orthodox Christianity in Yugoslavia (in fact, he fought because he expected that Hitler would establish something more German over the Yugoslavs which oppressed him); that it was Christian to support Hitler (he would also say that his support of Hitler was quite very much in spite of, and not because of, his Christianity.) And that the Serbs were among the Yugoslavs who tended to support Hitler.

Following the Gotscheer's general support of Hitler, the Serbs were so angry at the Gotscheer's fascism, that they they committed a very successful genocide against the Gottscheer. The people today exist only in the UK and the US.


153 posted on 12/01/2005 7:53:34 PM PST by dangus
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To: WildTurkey

>> What is there in Christianity to oppose Nazism? <<

(*filed under, "Questions not worth responding to," and "Evidence that there ARE stupid questions, not just stupid answers."*)


154 posted on 12/01/2005 7:55:20 PM PST by dangus
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> It established the German Christian Church, for heaven's sake! <<

Yes, it invented a false church to mimic, but oppose Christianity. The Maoists did the same thing.


155 posted on 12/01/2005 7:56:32 PM PST by dangus
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To: FormerLib

"atheism stands for the principles of reason, freedom and individual rights."

Not to mention the bloody single-minded excess of the French Revolution.


156 posted on 12/02/2005 3:25:25 AM PST by OpusatFR
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To: WildTurkey
Properly understood, atheism stands for the principles of reason, freedom and individual rights. It is opposed to all forms of totalitarian ideology.

That is a load of total and complete hogwash. Whenever atheism has become a political force it has been totalitarian.

157 posted on 12/02/2005 4:47:17 AM PST by wideawake
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To: July 4th
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

Well, you just lost me, there, Mr. Andrews.

158 posted on 12/02/2005 5:20:13 AM PST by gridlock (eliminate perverse incentives)
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To: dangus
Since Christianity is defined by rejecting certain actions inherent to the Nazi system, one doesn't need to get bogged down in debates over Hitler's contraditory and dishonest statements. Hence, we can eliminate the possibility that Hitler was a Christian.

Martin Luther preached the enslavement of the Jews and the mass execution of Rabbis. Following the logic above, one concludes Martin Luther was not a Christian. That makes the fact that major Christian denominations are to this day named after Martin Luther a bit problematic, no?

159 posted on 12/02/2005 5:28:26 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: WildTurkey
Properly understood, atheism stands for the principles of reason, freedom and individual rights.

It's that "properly understood" thing that is problematic.

Atheism throws the baby out with the bathwater. Lots of nafarious things move into the resulting void.

Like drunk driving and car crashes, atheism and nihilistic totalitarian idiocies just seem to go together. Which is not to say some drunks don't manage to drive home safely and some atheists are harmless. But you have to admit there is a correlation, no?

160 posted on 12/02/2005 5:31:10 AM PST by gridlock (eliminate perverse incentives)
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