Posted on 11/29/2005 7:57:10 AM PST by paltz
Edited on 11/29/2005 8:07:21 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
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"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."
The episode wasn't the only instance when McCain broke under physical pressure.
Just after his release in May 1973, he detailed his experience as a P.O.W. in a lengthy account in U.S. News & World Report.
He described the day Hanoi Hilton guards beat him "from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes."
"For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards . . . Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope."
McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."
"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.
Surely we have drugs that can be administered that make them talk...
HELEN: What did he give you?
HARRY: Sodium amytal, maybe some other truth agent.
HELEN: It makes you tell the truth?
HARRY: Yes.
HELEN: Is it working yet?
HARRY: Ask me a question I would normally lie to.
HELEN: Are we going to die?
HARRY: Yup.
HELEN: I'd say it's working.
HARRY: They'll either torture us to death, shoot us in the head, or leave us until the bomb goes off.
HELEN: Okay, okay. I get it. How long have you been a spy, Harry?
HARRY: 17 years.
HELEN: My God. Have you had to... have sex with other women in the line of duty?
HARRY: I don't take those assignments.
HELEN: What about Juno?
HARRY: She's really a fox, isn't she?
HELEN: Did you pork her Harry?
HARRY: No. But I wanted to.
HELEN: Are you a total lying, scumsucking pig Harry?
HARRY: Looks that way.
he signed a paper to make it stop and that's not the same thing as telling them what they need to know... McCain of ALL people should know coercive interrogation has a purpose and a useful time window. what was done to him for YEARS was for sport and to break his mind and body, NOT to extract useful military information even though the paper he signed was used for propaganda purposes, it's still not the same thing we are doing.
Ditto...
McCain's support of Kerry against the unanswered charges by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth -- buried McCain's credibility..
McCain behaved EXACTLY as one who has MUCH TO HIDE, as did Kerry....
I believe the SBVT, and I believe Juanita Broderick in her claim of rape by Clinton.....
Semper Fi
You have 19 hours in which to glean infomation concerning a nuclear bomb about to be set off in a major city. You also have a person in custody who knows which city and where it is located. The person in custody would rather die then give up the information.
Now answer me this........ How are you going to get this person to give you the information you need?
"We will, this is incredible, he is admitting he was broken in jail and squealed like a pig.
I would have died trying to escape"
Easy to say....Those guys were nearly starved to death...diseased....tortured...many had broken limbs from ejection that Vietnamese liked to twist. Not many of them escaped.
In fact McCain was offered early release due to his father being an Admiral but he chose to stay. It's starting to sound like DU in here.
There are ways of interrrogating people without using torture. The Israelis for example don't use torture.
That's for sure! Why would any one in their right mind want a nutwad like John McCain minding the "nuclear button".
This is a bit off-topic, but I have always wondered why Jerimiah Denton was the first off the plane from Hanoi. I have always felt that Everett Alvarez (sp) should have been first off. He was the longest held. Anyone know the reasoning behind that?
So we're supposed to adopt the North Vietnamese practices? Is that what NewsMax wants? Then let's strike out that line from the Marine hymn: "and to keep our honor clean."
You can talk all you want. What I'm saying is it could happen. It will happen. There are people now living who want it to happen. And you would torture them, if put in a position to do so, if it meant saving millions of innocent lives. I know you would. You know you would. The rest is all mindless internet chit-chat, to win an argument or make fancy points. If you were in that actual position, you wouldn't be trying to win arguments, you'd be trying to prevent the cold-blooded murder of millions of innocent people. I know you. I know what you would do.
We're not talking about some ultra-time sensitive, millions-will-die fairytopia scenario.Bullshit. What is real is there are many people now living wanting to murder millions of us. Given the chance, they would do it. The rest is bullshit. Mindless internet chit-chat to win an argument or make a point.
YOU would torture. YOU would do it. All talk to the contrary is mindless internet lying, just to sound fancy and intellectual, and make a sweet and delictable point. Bullshit.
Now where is my strange friend from yesterday that was babbling about rape?
Can you apply your rape theories here?
You made a silly argument about signing to be Mickey Mouse. They would not do that. He signed he committed war crimes. Then you got guys like Kerry and Fonda over here saying we committed war crimes. The NV says, they're right, we got proof here. They tell their people they Americans are criminals - read this. Signed by their own hand. Stupid and ignorant people believe anything. Than, when the next guy gets shot down, the villagers take out their aggression and fear on them. So yes, it does work. It does have consequences.
And McCain is and has never been a hero. He was a f-up from the git-go. He barely got out of Annapolis. If his dad and granddad were not 4 stars, they would have booted his sorry arse out! His plane caused the fire on the Forrestal. He and John Glenn should have been booted out of the Congress and into jail along with the other Keating Five. He has sold us down the river and will do so again to become President. The odds are against him - he is a Senator, the media will turn on him in a heartbeat, and he does not have the backing of the base. Yet, his greed and arrogance will cause him to run. He will crash and burn, like in the jungle and like 2000. Will he blame Bush this time around?
LOL!! Glad you didn't say it! :)
Just got word about 30 minutes ago that my daughter in the Navy is home from deployment in Sicily -- now she will be freezing in Maine. Was on the phone with her husband who was at the terminal at Brunswick NAS, ME, when her plane touched down. What a relief -- I hate it when she flies in those P-3's across the Atlantic.
Would like to send McCain and some others up in those old P-3's, and I bet the Navy wouldn't be sending their people back in those planes since there are no real jump seats like in the Air Force planes. John McCain's Navy comes up very short on quality of life compared to the Air Force. Why doesn't he speak out about that instead of worrying about torture of enemies? He has his priorities screwed up if you ask me.
It is always easy to be a hero from the sidelines. Many were broken in the hell-hole prisons of North Vietnam, and you can ask any for a man, not one of them will question or judge the other on their honor, behavior or actions in captivity. Though many have long-standing disagreements on other issues, not one has sat in judgement of the other. It is always easy to judge, when one has not walked in their shoes.
I may question his policies, his positions, or his vote, but I will never question McCain's service to this nation.
Since this *is* the internet, I guess it's all mindless internet chit-chat, isn't it?
Right. And you get to win the argument. And feel morally superior. I'll concede that to you.
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