Posted on 11/29/2005 7:57:10 AM PST by paltz
Edited on 11/29/2005 8:07:21 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
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"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."
The episode wasn't the only instance when McCain broke under physical pressure.
Just after his release in May 1973, he detailed his experience as a P.O.W. in a lengthy account in U.S. News & World Report.
He described the day Hanoi Hilton guards beat him "from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes."
"For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards . . . Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope."
McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."
"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.
young Rove had a direct line with his captors at the time
Admiral James Stockdale was Perot's running mate.
James Stockdale
Let's look at the objectives of particular instances of torturing.
One objective could be merely to have sadistic fun.
Another could be to extract material to be used for political propaganda.
These seem to be the objectives of the N. Vietnamese communists.
But what if the purpose is to save many innocent lives?
The moral distiction is obvious.
My mistake - He did not receive the M.O.H.
I imagine that a professional intelligence officer can be trained how to resist torture quite effectively. And I imagine that our military gets some lite flavor of similar training. But I doubt the jihadists we are up against have received any such training. They maybe fanatics and that counts for something but I believe their culture also predisposes them to breaking under torture. I think all this "torture does not work stuff" is just a PC argument that really does not stand-up to real world scrutiny.
Despite whether or not torture is effective or not, the question of whether it is something America can morally tolerate is a different issue. Personally, I believe it depends on the enemy (perhaps it is OK to torture terrorists but not enemy soldiers in compliance with Geneva conventions) and the circumstances (ticking bomb scenario). I don't think we should tie the President's hands and I think we should rely on our Democratic system to put reasonably morally fit people into the Presidency.
As someone who used to teach the Geneva Conventions to soldiers, the expectation is this: It is understood that the potential for breaking under inhume conditions is there. If it happens, give as little information as possible, then regroup, pull yourself together as best you can and hold on as long as possible. It is also understood that soldiers who are aware of what their rights are under the Geneva and Hague conventions are much more effective in demanding them.
Thanks
Adm. Stockdale - a man's man, a sailor's sailor.
Yep. I had the wrong guy.
"Let's say there's a suitcase nuke planted somwhere in Manhattan and ticking away, scheduled to explode soon, too soon to evacucate people."
You can use this same situation to justify just about anything. Should we be able to drag his wife in and shoot her in front of him? How about torturing his innocent mother? How about torturing and killing his innocent children? I mean, to save the city, what WOULDN'T we be able to do ethically? Anything?
Once you're down that road, you can forget about anything being categorically wrong at all, and you're committed to situational ethics and relativism.
I liked it better when he threw the table over his shoulder and shot Cheric in the leg, season 4.
Some of us tried last year but, unfortunately, not nearly enough. We're stuck with him for awhile.
It's nice, nice to say that the USA will not torture but the problem remains on how do we enforce "Do Not Torture" rules for other nations.
Saddam tortured HIS OWN PEOPLE for years and the UN was in a position to condemn it. No one said: "Boo"!!
He also believes the Swift Boat Vets, and by association the many highly decorated POWs that joined the SBVs effort, are disgraceful liars and believes the traitor John Kerry would be a wonderful President.
Someone needs to find his Queen of Diamonds and deprogram him.;)
I can't believe the duality of this guy ... wait a minute ... he's in the Senate! Never mind ...
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