Posted on 11/29/2005 7:57:10 AM PST by paltz
Edited on 11/29/2005 8:07:21 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator. [history]
Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
"Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
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"I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."
The episode wasn't the only instance when McCain broke under physical pressure.
Just after his release in May 1973, he detailed his experience as a P.O.W. in a lengthy account in U.S. News & World Report.
He described the day Hanoi Hilton guards beat him "from pillar to post, kicking and laughing and scratching. After a few hours of that, ropes were put on me and I sat that night bound with ropes."
"For the next four days, I was beaten every two to three hours by different guards . . . Finally, I reached the lowest point of my 5 1/2 years in North Vietnam. I was at the point of suicide, because I saw that I was reaching the end of my rope."
McCain was taken to an interrogation room and ordered to sign a document confessing to war crimes. "I signed it," he recalled. "It was in their language, and spoke about black crimes, and other generalities."
"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
That McCain broke under torture doesn't make him any less of an American hero. But it does prove he's wrong to claim that harsh interrogation techniques simply don't work.
.....I bet it is still working on him....
Of course it is. That is the reason he must never be President.
I prefer a general to a Lt Commander. Say Tommy Franks or General Meyers. I prefer a cool head to a hot head.
I honor the service that he has given this country while on active duty.
BUT... since then, he is a fraud and a liar. I have nothing but contempt for him now.
Explains a lot, don't it???
Which, of course, is why he became a strident opponent of the United States upon being elected Senator.
Torture, on the other hand, is pointless and counter-productive.Let's say there's a suitcase nuke planted somwhere in Manhattan and ticking away, scheduled to explode soon, too soon to evacucate people. You've got somebody who you know helped plant the device, and he knows you know he helped plant the device. You torture him. If he lies to you, or refuses to talk, you torture him some more. You know when he's lying, because the bomb isn't where he says it is. You know he's telling the truth when you find the bomb.
He might not talk, and millions might die. But what decent person on planet earth --- in the situation I've just described --- would not torture the bastard? Make sure you don't kill him, but provide such a degree of pain that he just might break, and tell you where the bomb is. And you save millions of lives.
Who wouldn't do it? You would do it. Don't lie about it. Don't lie just to make some silly point on a discussion board. You think about it. You think about what you would do in that actual situation and I know you'd be down there right next to that bastard, pulling out his fingernails or shoving lit cigarettes up his nose. I know I'd be doing it. And I know you would be too.
You would torture the bastard until he talked. Which he probably would if you used the right torture.
Jack just sent the guy's daughter into an area infected with a deadly virus. That got the guy talking. RE:24
There is a distinct difference between torture and harsh interrogation methods. Article is fallacious in it's entirety. Compares to apples to walnuts.
Article II: I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
Article III: If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Article IV: If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
Article V: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service, number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
Article VI: I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
The McCainian Candidate.
Mclames torture works on me. It is painful to all sense of reason and personnaly damaging to my psyche.
Nice straw man.
We're not talking about some ultra-time sensitive, millions-will-die fairytopia scenario. We're talking about the use of torture against detainees AFTER they've been removed from the battlefield.
These POS's are kept in more or less isolation, so the half-life on their intelligence value is pretty short. There's much better ways to get accurate info out of them than to torture them. Sleep deprivation? Sure. Environmental factors? Sure. Hell, make 'em think we're giving them over to a country that really DOES torture - that tends to work pretty well. But torture as a policy is simply stupid.
Also messed up his mind too much to ever be president
Surely we have drugs that can be administered that make them talk.
Perhaps the most striking example of the media's unwillingness to challenge McCain's air of moral authority is when he shocks listeners by casually calling the Vietnamese "gooks." The racist and disparaging term, popularized by GIs during the war, occurs repeatedly in a 1973 U.S. News & World Report account penned by McCain after his release from prison. "The 'gooks' were bombarding us with antiwar quotes from people in high places back in Washington," he wrote, referring to the propaganda that his captors gave him. A quarter of a century later, while speaking with reporters aboard the Straight Talk Express in October, McCain was still calling Vietnamese "gooks"--and according to a reporter who was there, no one called him on it. It's enough to make you wonder whether the reporters were thinking: Well, this guy spent five years in a prison camp, so he can say anything he wants. Roger Simon, writing in U.S. News, cited the incident and added: "John McCain says 'gooks,' and who's going to tell him not to?"
When asked about the slur during the 2000 campaign, McCain did not apologize and stated he believed the word accurately described his captors. This was the one and only time I ever had respect for anything he's said.
For a real eye opener study these sometime:
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm
Pay attention to the rank of our honored heros and read the deeds that earned these men the M.O.H. It is my opinion that the higher the rank of the individual, the lower the standard for receiving it. Read the exploits of the "grunts" for true outstanding acts of heroism.
Look up Admiral Jerimiah Denton and tell me what you think.
I must have his name wrong because I can't find him. I am talking about the man who was Ross Perot's running mate.
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