Posted on 05/02/2005 7:25:14 AM PDT by worldclass
Noting that in his Good Friday homily soon-to-be pope Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger condemned the "filth there is in the church," Wheeler believes the pontiff "will not tolerate [homosexuality's] presence in his church."
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
Prudence was never discussed in some liturgico/wonk/pinkster training classes.
Largely because prudence would have kept the queers out of the seminaries.
Used to be a virtue, IIRC.
["Crumbs" that one would need a microscope to see.]
Just the type of response I would expect to receive from you.
As for the first Mass, the bread was unleavened and like Pita bread, so I am certain that very few if any crumbs fell to the floor.
Do you believe in transubstantiation, Deacon? Or do you not?
[You're engaged in particlitis, a form of scrupulosity, Mershon.]
I have a regular FATHER confessor, and guess what, it is NOT you!
Let me guess... Scrupulosity never has been one of your faults, has it?
Also, the claim about hesitation to believe reports of rampant homosexuality in the priesthood in America , due to his experience in communist poland, can only go so far. In the end, it is only a figleaf.
JPII had 24 years to appoint all the bishops and cardinals in the world. Please dont tell me that he let that opportunity go by and indiscriminately appointed homosexual bishops nad cardinals to those posts. If that is what is being said, I am in despair about the future of the Roman Catholic Church. Are they trying to say that even the church's saviours became enfeebled by diffidence in the face of such evils?!!
There must be a different and deeper reason for not fixing the American hierarchy during his pontificate. BTW, I do not know that the hierarchy was not fixed. Up until today, I thought that JPII was working behind the scenes to appoint only good and strong people to these positions. Now, we are told he had an idiotic diffidence which doomed his appointments ---for 24 years!!!!!
I don't know whether to be skeptical of this report or to just give up hoping that anything can be done.
My point is that this very "figleaf" is insidious and malicious about JPII. I hope it is not true. It reminds me about what used to be said about Germans who did nothing or worse during the Nazizeit: "They were naive politically."
I think that PiusXII's Musicae Sacrae Disciplina made a change in the definitions involved here.
IIRC, the Pope tightened the definition of orders to exclude those singing in the choir--meaning that using women in your basic parish choir was OK (blessing, after the fact, the common practice.)
That change was applied to 'acolytes,' changing the previous "all-male" requirement and effectively downgrading them to 'lay ministers.'
IOW, your use of the term "ministry" is inaccurate, and your conclusions are not within canonical definitions.
Further, there's no "doctrine" involved in the question anymore.
With the exception (at least currently) of Poland, Europe is becoming very much barren of Christianity. Italy and Spain, historically very Catholic countries, also have very low birth rates and church attendance. To blame that on Protestants isn't honest, it has more to do with a prevailing world view that is very hostile to Christ.
I'm not talking about the "first Mass." I'm talking about the Eucharist that the faithful took home with them on Sundays for consumption during the week. You're aware that they did that in the early Church, aren't you?
And, Pita bread drops crumbs. Big crumbs.
I share your skepticism--not least because Jack Wheeler, the reporter on this case, is not known as a reliable Vatican-reporter (to say the least.)
Dear sinkspur,
"And, Pita bread drops crumbs. Big crumbs."
Yeah, I always get a crumb or two when I eat my gyros.
;-)
sitetest
At one time, it was. Scrupulosity is a form of obsessive/compulsive behavior, like returning home two or three times after driving away to make sure the garage door is shut or the oven is off.
When a wise spiritual director convinced me it was also a lack of trust in God, no more scrupulosity.
You're not hearing what I'm saying anyway. Hope you never have a position of administrative responsibility where you rely on your subordinates for an accurate report of what's going on, because you just made yourself responsible for everything they do, even if some of them are deliberately hiding stuff from you.
The oldest joke in the little country church I grew up is was "You can always find the visiting Catholics, they are the ones who can't sing." When my bride first started going to church with me, she said "You grew up singing THAT?" She just can't get used to the fact that the old Lutheran hymns take a bit of skill to belt out.
Dear AnAmericanMother,
What's worse is that those who wish to blame the scandal on Pope John Paul then fail to credit him for any of the substantial decrease in the problem in recent years.
Although I think it was wrong to cover up what was going on, it still appears to me that the Church was doing SOMETHING to address the problem during the pontificate of John Paul II. As I've stated previously on this thread, the number of abuse cases peaked in the 1980s, at more than 900 in a single year. By the mid 1990s, the number of cases had fallen to some dozens per year.
If John Paul is to blame for the problem, and at least in part for the cover-up, why is he not also to be credited with the solution, most of which was in place by the time the scandal of the cover-up was exposed?
sitetest
Interesting.
Your posts are always so informative; I love reading more when I get home from work.
>>Good. Accept that it is not a "problem" as such. Ideally, the schola is all male as well, as music is a "ministry" in the Church and only MEN can serve as "minister" according to Catholic discipline and doctrine. However, even some Traddie parishes allow women to sing when there are not enough men to volunteer.<<
Not having Altar Girls is a problem for some people. For me, the mother of girls, I see nothing wrong with it.
I believe that boys have been so marginalized in our society that giving them a special place is not only right but needed. Altar Boys become Priests, not Altar Girls.
The discussion comes where there are not enough boys to serve. This was never a problem in my home parish in Cleveland (although I have heard it is different now) nor my parish now.
Our pastor leans down to the little boys and says, "How old are you?"
If the boy says, "Three." Father tells him that next year he can be an Altar Boy!
The older boys help the younger ones. It is a beautiful sight to see!
Even at the 6am Holy Mass on weekdays, we have Altar Boys.
As for any other parish being like this, I'm looking HARD! We would like to move back to Cleveland, but leaving this parish would be very tough. One of the FReepers told me there is a parish with Latin and Greek in Northern Ohio. If we move back we will go there.
Next month, my daughter's First Communion party is back home. We will go to Holy Mass at that parish and see what it is like.
Reasonable, for the time and place--but the Roman Empire is long dead and gone, and the continuing utility of Latin in missionary work is nonexistent. The sole remaining justification that I can see for it is to cut down on translation costs and miscommunications within the Church hierachy, and "tradition".
"Please share your antinomian angst with Rembert Weakland, OSB. He needs a few new friends, and can teach you a great deal about subtle ways to be contumacious, not to mention disingenuous.
Since I have no "antinomian angst", and have no idea who Rembert Weakland is, and am not trying to be either contumacious nor disingenuous, your comment has no point.
You are fortunate in your diocese.
Here in the New Orleans area there are no Latin masses in parish churches- at least not to my knowledge. I remember hearing about ONE, but I'm not sure that was ever true.
The general feeling at the parish where our children attend school is that you ARE schismatic if you attend Latin mass instead of the regular mass at parish church.
The tiny church that offers the traditional Latin mass is on the outskirts of the city, not easy to get to but it's filled every Sunday.It is the Society of St Pius- that is the only option here. Why this is so I do not know; but a very old, traditonally Catholic city like New Orleans has a LARGE number of of Catholics who would attend Latin mass if their parish churches offered it-and they would not made to feel like schismatics doing so.
Would the entire parish? Probably not. But neither would an entire parish attend mass in any number of foreign languages. Why do numbers matter? Are five worshippers not worth the priests time? Does it have to be (x) number in the pews before any mass is said at all?
You make an important point with the 'rock start' analogy.
When the priest faces the altar, not the congregation, he is leading his congregation in worship- facing God.
The lack of 'sense of the sacred' and the feeling of mystery and awe is what we lost.
Some say that is good- that God shouldn't be mysterious, that we should not be in awe, but as comfortable as if he were on our couch having coffee. And, certainly , one can worship God anywhere. One place is as good as another. Church should be as familiar as any other place you go.
Those are the arguments for increasingly secularized religion. And they have worked.
Fewer people are in church nowadays. There is no special feeling of stepping out of everyday life and into the presence of God by connecting with an age-old ritual. Without that feeling you might as well stay home and talk to God while you listen to the radio.
Or say your prayers in Latin and recite your rosary. Which many are doing. And so churches are empty.
Still wrong. Latin is the official language of the Catholic Church HIERACHY. If it were the official langauage of the entire church, all Bibles would be printed in Latin only, and knowledge of the Latin language would be required of all church members. That is not the case, so Latin is NOT "the official language of the Catholic Church".
No I am not a bureaucrat, and never will be. But I can judge someone's results over 24 years and distinguish between a figleaf and a real explanation.
The key question is: Did JPII keep homosexuals out of the roster of bishops and cardinals that he appointed over 24 years--or not?
All true, and good practical reasons for the Church HIERARCHY to continue to use it. But that is simply a matter of convenience, and not one of Church dogma or some kind of "sacredness" on the part of Latin.
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