Posted on 05/02/2005 7:25:14 AM PDT by worldclass
Noting that in his Good Friday homily soon-to-be pope Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger condemned the "filth there is in the church," Wheeler believes the pontiff "will not tolerate [homosexuality's] presence in his church."
(Excerpt) Read more at worldnetdaily.com ...
If you don't think you've shown disdain for John Paul, you really have a blind spot. If you really don't think you've been disdainful, I suggest having your posts on John Paul translated into Polish, read them aloud in Krakow's capacious town square, and let the passersby judge whether you've been disdainful.
The numbers were provided by the USCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCB, and the details were not covered correctly by USA Today.
But then again, what better way to counter Jones' book than to begin to cite statistics in a way that make things look better than they are.
As usual with you, don't let facts get in the way of your worldview.
Do you view the papacy as a poularity contest or one as the head of the Holy Roman Catholic Church and Christ's vicar on earth? You seem to be hung up on what the Polish masses think.
Sinky: The master of the straw man argument, obfusctation and putting words into other people's mouths. You are a master at this obfuscation technique. See below for details.
Didn't ever have a Socratic method class in your diaconate training, did you?
"You seem to assert that the entire future of the Catholic Church hinges on a return to Latin in the liturgy. That's absurd on its face."
Dear BlackElk,
I think a number of your points can be summed up as, "He planted seeds."
He planted a lot of seeds. He planted them, I think, strategically and with great purpose.
Like you, I see the newer priests being ordained now as decidedly more orthodox than those ordained in the 1960s and 1970s, and even a bit beyond. Even more importantly, I see that the younger priests are often more unapologetically orthodox than the older, orthodox priests.
I wonder whether part of the crisis in the episcopacy was driven by a lack of sufficient numbers of priests who were, 1.) administratively competent, 2.) truly orthodox, and 3.) even moderately pastoral.
I look at Cardinal Law, who personally appeared to be very orthodox, but who was criminally incompetent.
Perhaps Pope John Paul the Great saw that there was a dearth of folks to raise to the episcopacy, and understood that it was his job to plant the seeds of orthodox vocations that would eventually grow into priests who were both competent and orthodox enough to become bishops.
Certainly, when one looks at the picture painted by Michael Rose's book, one can see significant improvement in many seminaries in the last 15 years.
As well, looking at the other major problem from the hierarchy, the scandal, one can see that even as the news of the wide-ranging effect of the scandal became known, the actual problem had been dramatically reduced.
I hate to drag him into this conversation everywhere I go, but dangus has done a great job of looking at the statistics of the abuse scandal. It seems to have peaked in the mid-1980s. One year showed in the mid-1980s, I think, over 900 cases of abuse! But move ahead a decade to the mid-1990s, and one sees a reduction in the number of new cases by about 95%.
Although John Paul the Great did not make public what was going on, apparently something was done during his pontificate that reversed a trend begun in the 1950s, and dramatically reduced this horrible scourge.
As for the laity, lots of seeds have been planted. I see them all around me. The most devout, most orthodox folks with whom I go to church are also the younger ones. My age or younger. I am personally one of those seeds planted by John Paul the Great. At his election, I could most charitably be described as a less-than-fully-informed-and-thus-less-than-fully-orthodox Catholic.
I'm still working on getting informed. But his example and his obvious love for us made me, compelled me, to want to be a better, more orthodox Catholic, to be in complete unity with the Church and her teachings. I will, of course, credit first the grace of God in this, but clearly, it was our late Holy Father who was the channel of this grace.
So, I think that's a big part of what John Paul the Great did. He planted seeds.
Some of those seeds have come to fruition. We will have to wait for others. I think the years ahead of us may surprise us.
sitetest
Guys, I haven't read all of judic me's posts, but as a Catholic who attends an indult parish twice per month, and the Novus Ordo otherwise, and daily, I second the motion about stopping the "John Paul the Great" nonsense. It is not an indication of a Catholic's Catholicism to disagree on this matter.
He asked for two things in his last will and testament that was made public: To pray for the repose of his soul; to have Masses said for him.
I have been doing both. He never once asked to have himself immediately beatified and canonized and made a Great.
I think we should reserve that judgment to history, and to Pope's (like the current one!) who will be lambasted and slandered and scorned by the world, like Christ was.
I pray for the repose of John Paul II's soul. This is proper Catholic respect and piety. To disagree on an immediate canonization is NOT.
How about I pray for your Pope-ing?
Lutherans, by and large, make excellent Catholic choir-members...
I'm not hung up on what the "Polish masses" think. But if you really believe you haven't been disdainful of John Paul, you'd have no trouble letting "the Polish masses" be the judge of that. The fact that you aren't shows just who is the "sissy" around here.
When I think of the "Polish masses," I think of the people who held on to the Faith despite tremendous persecution, some of whom handed it on to me. And people who had the good sense to always follow the Vicar of Christ, and not cast their lot with an excommunicated Frenchman who defied the Vicar of Christ.
And all of the things you mention depreciate from the sacred priesthood and from the reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, and are cause for reparation.
There was never a "need" for laymen to administer Holy Communion until this "need" was created, against the express will of the Holy Father, by recalcitrant bishops like the former Cardinal Bernardin and others.
And there is never a need for girls to serve at the Holy Altar. The "need" is artificially created. But the Americanist, feminist Moms certainly feel less cheated though.
If two-thirds receive in the hand, then that means the CRUMBS left over on the hands fall to the ground and are trampled underfoot. I am not speaking of the times of entire hosts being dropped. And if communion is given from the chalice, then Precious Blood WILL be spilled. It is only a matter of time.
Now, now, now. I was reprimanded for using that kind of language.
Yes they were. You accept the word of some author over the authoritative source, which is in the business of collecting these statistics.
The statistics flatly deny Jones' numbers. There are twice as many converts as he says there are.
Of course, that ruins Jones' theory that the Church is going to hell.
If you have any to spare, it would be appreciated.
The advantage of a "dead" language is that it doesn't change. (Also, it doesn't give a "preference" to one living language over the others.) Translation is never exact; it's not a bad idea to have a standard from which translations are made that's not subject to peioration, melioration, regional differences, new meanings through current slang, etc.
"But the fathers of the church obviously thought that was insufficient reason when they threw it out as the language for masses."
Second Vatican Council on the Sacred Liturgy: "Latin is to be retained in the Latin rite."
"Gregorian chant is to be given pride of place in the sacred liturgy."
Don't let the facts get in your way.
And as for Episcopalians and Anglicans who call themselves "catholic." That is nice... Read John Henry Cardinal Newman. He will disavow you of that presumption.
Even more than that: "The Jews keep the Sabbath, and the Sabbath keeps the Jews."
I am a whole lot closer to the Orthodox church than the Roman Catholic one. I'm not called "Honorary Serb" for nothing! And there is a Serbian Orthodox bishop who prays for me to become Orthodox.
Lutherans make great Orthodox theolgians (e.g., Jaroslav Pelikan), priests, builders of Orthodox churches, contributors to Orthodox humanitarian aid, and defenders of persecuted Orthodox Christians as well as other persecuted Christians! We sing the Divine Liturgy (in English or Slavonic) well, too!
Many more Lutherans are likely to become Catholic in the next few years than Orthodox, however.
All my fellow Lutherans, even those who know little of either Roman Catholicism or Orthodoxy, and have no intention of becoming either one, need your prayers!!!!
"Crumbs" that one would need a microscope to see. You're engaged in particlitis, a form of scrupulosity, Mershon.
I wonder how many crumbs fell from the Consecrated Bread that was taken home by members of the early Church for consumption during the week.
Perservere WITHIN the Church and you take the most reliable road to restoration of the magnificence of Tridentine worship. Also, Latin language is not the real crux of the matter. It is the NO promotion of the "presider" as rock star: "Hi, I'm Fr. Bruce and will be your presider today! Hallelujah!", the priest facing the people as though they were worshipping him, the agonizingly heterodox translations into Enmglish, the lack of a sense of the sacred, etc.
I am in the Rockford diocese where Bishop Thomas Doran has told each and every priest that the priest may say the Tridentine Mass without further permission. The bishop has said the Tridentine Mass and conferred confirmation in the Tridentine Rite. Not only is he not a schismatic but he sits on the seven-judge Signatura, the Church's Supreme Ecclesiastical Court in Rome. Also, Latin Novus Ordo Masses have always been allowed.
Thanks!
"Communion is given on the tongue with the host dipped in the Precious Blood. Kneeling."
Good. Avoids the problem. Know anywhere else like this in the U.S.?
"Our pastor believes that a priest should not be sleeping (we have four) while EMCs are handing out the Eucharist."
Good.
"Normally, we receive from a priest or a deacon. Only during the holidays are EMCs used."
Good. The letter of the law is being followed. The Latin Mass I attend NEVER has the need for EMCs, on holidays or otherwise. Never needed them prior to Vatican II either. I wonder why.
"We have 200 (yes, 200! Our parish was mentioned on EWTN for this) Altar BOYS. We have Choir Girls and Altar Boys. Problem solved."
Good. Accept that it is not a "problem" as such. Ideally, the schola is all male as well, as music is a "ministry" in the Church and only MEN can serve as "minister" according to Catholic discipline and doctrine. However, even some Traddie parishes allow women to sing when there are not enough men to volunteer.
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